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Author Topic: [British] PIAT balance  (Read 1075 times)
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NightRain Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3930



« on: May 26, 2020, 10:35:13 pm »

I think it is time to discuss about the best handheld in the game. PIAT.

PIAT strength comes from fact it comes on a small 4 man platform. This unit can ambush. This unit never has to take return fire. PIAT also is fairly accurate and hard hitting . It will KO anti tank guns, scouts and anything without the other player having much choice but to move or lose their unit.  You can still snipe infantry with PIATs, It is less frequent but still happens.

I think there are two ways to approach it to bring it in line with other hand helds.
Option 1) You only get 1 piat. Doctrine unlocks can bring it to 2
Option 2) PIATs will need direct line of sight to be fired. No more richman riflenade.

« Last Edit: May 27, 2020, 12:53:46 am by NightRain » Logged

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Illegal_Carrot Offline
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« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2020, 11:11:00 pm »

Ah, a good old balance thread on the forums, we haven't had one of these in a while. Smiley

I've always felt that PIATs were the most underrated hand-held AT. The 90 damage they deal is decent, but the real kicker is the ridiculous +60% damage modifier they get against P4s, and +50% against Panthers and Tigers. Do they still get ambush bonuses on top of that?

I like both options, with a major cost reduction to compensate. 1x PIAT for 60MU, 2x PIATs as doctrinal maybe? Also remove Sapper ambush cloak (leave it on Commando PIATs tho) if it's still around. Maybe even give Infantry Sections access to a 1x PIAT purchase (perhaps doctrinal?). Reduce projectile speed a bit, but reduce weapon scatter as well. Would make for a much more balanced HHAT weapon IMO. But they need to stop shooting through buildings.
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Tachibana Offline
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« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2020, 12:31:57 am »

First they came for the RRs, and I did not speak outó
     Because I was not Hamster.

Then they came for the panzerfausts, and I did not speak outó
     Because I was not Mysth

Then they came for the Piats, and I did not speak outó
     Because fuck Ola.
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TheVolskinator Offline
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« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2020, 09:05:46 pm »

>They only issued PIATs one at a time per section (usually).
>Realism boner rising


I think this merits more discussion; a very valid balance concern.
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Illegal_Carrot Offline
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« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2020, 10:07:21 am »

>They only issued PIATs one at a time per section (usually).
>Realism boner rising
This, unironically.

In a battle scenario, you'd likely want to spread your special assets (in the case hand-held AT weaponry) out as evenly as possible, to prevent any one loss or setback from eliminating too much of your company's capabilities. Unfortunately, many of EIR's systems are designed in such a way (probably unintentionally) as to push players into concentrating a huge share of their resources into a small amount of units, and this is certainly one example of that. 2x PIATs, 2x RRs, etc. It negatively impacts gameplay by making these items more difficult to reasonably afford for players, and more difficult to balance/design around for the dev team. It also just seems kind of silly to have a 2x purchase available for such an expensive weapon, but no 1x package available.

Overall, it gives players more options and more control by shifting these weapon purchases to 1x non-doctrinal or 1x base purchase, and to 2x only for specialized/doctrinal stuff.
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Unkn0wn Offline
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« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2020, 11:28:32 am »

id be for offering a single piat purchase but limiting them to just 1 would be a significant nerf to CW's HHAT options. I'd suggest you try 2x piats with and without the high velocity doc upgrade. Without the m/s projectile speed buff theyre not at all that scary, bar the exception of their use more urban maps where they do indeed hold a significant area denial advantage.
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Mysthalin Offline
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« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2020, 12:43:47 pm »

I do tend towards agreeing with speedy that PIATs could use a tone-down.

Making it one per squad seems a little excessive, and removing their ability to ignore shotblockers would fundamentally nerf the weapon by a very large degree.

I'd like to consider nerfing their damage vs infantry armour further (currently they deal about 23 damage on a hit - would like this to be no more than 15) and making sure only red criticals can score a kill (currently they have a 5% snipe chance at green, 15% chance at yellow). Reducing the base damage per shot to be more in line with the bazooka at 75 is also worth considering (would still mean dropping down 240 damage per volley against unskirted tanks).

I don't think we should touch the cloak - and should only look to remove the one on mandos, rather than sappers. The reason for this being simply that the commando cloak type can not be broken by any means other than moving the squad (and there is no way to change this without breaking how commando smoke cloak works).
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Illegal_Carrot Offline
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« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2020, 01:38:23 am »

id be for offering a single piat purchase but limiting them to just 1 would be a significant nerf to CW's HHAT options.
Not if they're also available for purchase on Infantry Sections. The Boys AT Rifle is no substitute for proper HHAT, and there's no reason for PIATs to be engineer-specific. It would, in fact, make the most sense for PIATs to be available on the Commonwealth's main line fighting infantry squads, just like Panzerschrecks.

Quote
I'd suggest you try 2x piats with and without the high velocity doc upgrade. Without the m/s projectile speed buff theyre not at all that scary, bar the exception of their use more urban maps where they do indeed hold a significant area denial advantage.
So they're extremely hit-or-miss (red flag #1), and the best way to make use of them is to abuse their bullshit gimmicky pass-thu capabilities on certain maps (red flag #2), or by using a doctrine unlock that changes their fundamental characteristics as a projectile (red flag #3). Seems to me like we should rework the weapon to work on it's own, without having to be sold 2x to be useful, without having to abuse one of the worst design decisions Relic made with OF, and without needing doctrine buffs to be effective.

Making it one per squad seems a little excessive, and removing their ability to ignore shotblockers would fundamentally nerf the weapon by a very large degree.
I don't think "nerf" is the right word to use here, because what I'm envisioning isn't a balance tweak, but a fundamental change to the way PIATs operate to make them more interesting (both to play with and against), bring them more in line with all other forms of HHAT, and to make them a better fit for EIR.

Quote
I'd like to consider nerfing their damage vs infantry armour further (currently they deal about 23 damage on a hit - would like this to be no more than 15) and making sure only red criticals can score a kill (currently they have a 5% snipe chance at green, 15% chance at yellow). Reducing the base damage per shot to be more in line with the bazooka at 75 is also worth considering (would still mean dropping down 240 damage per volley against unskirted tanks).
I don't think tweaking the PIATs damage versus infantry is going to solve the real issue here. If we're going to go away from the 'no changes from vCOH' philosophy, I think we should lean into it and fundamentally change the weapon to work better in EIR.

Quote
I don't think we should touch the cloak - and should only look to remove the one on mandos, rather than sappers. The reason for this being simply that the commando cloak type can not be broken by any means other than moving the squad (and there is no way to change this without breaking how commando smoke cloak works).
There's no reason for Sappers to get an ambush cloak ability. PIATs already to very high damage to enemy vehicles, they don't need a (finicky) ambush bonus on top of that. And he ambush-themed cloak ability doesn't make sense on an engineer unit. If anything, it's the Commandos that should be keeping the ambush ability.
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Mysthalin Offline
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« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2020, 06:14:17 pm »

Not if they're also available for purchase on Infantry Sections. The Boys AT Rifle is no substitute for proper HHAT, and there's no reason for PIATs to be engineer-specific. It would, in fact, make the most sense for PIATs to be available on the Commonwealth's main line fighting infantry squads, just like Panzerschrecks.
Boys AT rifles are great, and seriously underestimated in their AT potential. Additionally, we steered away from giving 2x zooks to riflemen (the US mainline fithing infantry) - for good reason.

So they're extremely hit-or-miss (red flag #1), and the best way to make use of them is to abuse their bullshit gimmicky pass-thu capabilities on certain maps (red flag #2), or by using a doctrine unlock that changes their fundamental characteristics as a projectile (red flag #3). Seems to me like we should rework the weapon to work on it's own, without having to be sold 2x to be useful, without having to abuse one of the worst design decisions Relic made with OF, and without needing doctrine buffs to be effective.
Or they're largely fine/borderline, with the doctrine ability taking them significantly over the edge.

I don't think "nerf" is the right word to use here, because what I'm envisioning isn't a balance tweak, but a fundamental change to the way PIATs operate to make them more interesting (both to play with and against), bring them more in line with all other forms of HHAT, and to make them a better fit for EIR.

What you're suggesting is a massive nerf. Dressing it up in marketing spiel doesn't change what your intention here is. I fail to understand how making them function precisely like bazookas for all functional purposes makes them "more interesting".

I don't think tweaking the PIATs damage versus infantry is going to solve the real issue here. If we're going to go away from the 'no changes from vCOH' philosophy, I think we should lean into it and fundamentally change the weapon to work better in EIR.

I don't think there's a force in the world that could compel me to care about vCoH balance, as it's about as relevant to EiR as Warcraft 3 balance is. That aside, I don't think a fundamental change to the weapon is necessary. Tweaks? Sure. Wholesale redesign requires extraordinary performance. The PIAT simply does not perform at the level to warrant this.

There's no reason for Sappers to get an ambush cloak ability. PIATs already to very high damage to enemy vehicles, they don't need a (finicky) ambush bonus on top of that. And he ambush-themed cloak ability doesn't make sense on an engineer unit. If anything, it's the Commandos that should be keeping the ambush ability.

Already told you - it is impossible to code PIAT ambush on mandos without their PIAT ambush being broken and resulting in unbreakable, permanent cloak. It's hard coded into how cloak is tied to entities in CoH, and we'll be looking to remove PIAT ambush from mandos as a result shortly. Could the sappers lose the ambush ability in due course if PIATs continue to be a problem? Sure. Just don't campaign for it to be exclusive to mandos, as that's a non-starter.
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Illegal_Carrot Offline
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« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2020, 01:06:29 pm »

Additionally, we steered away from giving 2x zooks to riflemen (the US mainline fithing infantry) - for good reason.

Or they're largely fine/borderline, with the doctrine ability taking them significantly over the edge.
I'm not suggesting 2x weapons though, I'm suggesting 1x PIAT on Infantry Sections. This would allow players to spread their HHAT out better across their squads, and to take a HHAT option on their main line infantry, instead of having to concentrate it all in 2x packages on their engineer units. It wouldn't make sense if Panzerschrecks were only available in a 2x package on Pioneers, and it doesn't make much sense here either.

Let's flip the script. How about: The PIAT's ability to fire through objects, thru walls, thru hedges, and thru houses, is so broken, and is such a bad game mechanic, that it makes the PIAT difficult to balance around, and is worth looking at on those grounds alone? If the RR's scatter angle was worth looking at and tweaking, then surely the PIAT's ability to fire through solid objects is worth considering too.

Quote
What you're suggesting is a massive nerf. Dressing it up in marketing spiel doesn't change what your intention here is. I fail to understand how making them function precisely like bazookas for all functional purposes makes them "more interesting".

I don't think there's a force in the world that could compel me to care about vCoH balance, as it's about as relevant to EiR as Warcraft 3 balance is. That aside, I don't think a fundamental change to the weapon is necessary. Tweaks? Sure. Wholesale redesign requires extraordinary performance. The PIAT simply does not perform at the level to warrant this.

Already told you - it is impossible to code PIAT ambush on mandos without their PIAT ambush being broken and resulting in unbreakable, permanent cloak. It's hard coded into how cloak is tied to entities in CoH, and we'll be looking to remove PIAT ambush from mandos as a result shortly. Could the sappers lose the ambush ability in due course if PIATs continue to be a problem? Sure. Just don't campaign for it to be exclusive to mandos, as that's a non-starter.
PIATs firing through solid objects doesn't make them 'interesting', it's a poorly designed mechanic that, among HHAT, is only applied to the PIAT because Relic designed it that way for some reason. It's totally incongruous with all other forms of HHAT. Can you imagine if IHTs full of Panzerschrecks could fire through hedges and buildings? It would make no sense, and be totally bullshit. The PIAT was created specifically to fill the same sort of HHAT capability that Bazookas and Panzerschrecks provided, so I would expect them to perform similarly, yes. Giving a weapon the ability to fire through solid objects for no reason is not good design, and it's the kind of bullshit that people get fed up with. There's a lot of those kinds of issues with EIR, and we should be looking to address them when we can.

My thoughts are in response to Speedy's OP. Specifically:
I think it is time to discuss about the best handheld in the game. PIAT.
...
This unit never has to take return fire. It will KO anti tank guns, scouts and anything without the other player having much choice but to move or lose their unit.
...
Option 2) PIATs will need direct line of sight to be fired. No more richman riflenade.
I read his post and think "this isn't a balance issue, this is a design issue".

I'm not addressing this as "PIATs are OP and I want them to be nerfed", I'm looking at it from the perspective of "this is a bad game mechanic that should be changed to improve gameplay". The PIAT's ability to fire through solid objects does not add much to EIR, but it does take away a lot from it. Especially for new players who have no idea how to address the ceaseless barrages of PIAT mortars firing 35m out, even from behind solid objects.
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Olazaika1 Offline
EIR Regular
Posts: 45



« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2020, 02:18:01 pm »

Then they came for the Piats, and I did not speak outó
     Because fuck Ola.

ok boomer
feels good to see such words after leaving the community and not once abusing piat spam besides proving the point on wasps (refusing to run infantry companies)

Shitposting-esque suggestion :

Reduce price to 70mu, keep ability to shoot through shotblockers, reduce range to 19, make it a castable ability, make it do critical engine damage

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lol dats true get rekt



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you can't just post a replay every single time I fuck up the opening
NightRain Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3930



« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2020, 03:26:38 pm »

PIATs are most dangerous when in a speedy vehicle. Brengun carrier mario kart and or Kangoroo carrier can achieve that.
High speed unit and a weapon that can ignore shot blockers does not make for fun gameplay. I think the kangoroo carrier makes it the most problematic of them all since brengun carriers have limited firing slots compared to that thing.

Even if PIAT loses its ability to fire over shotblockers, it retains its artillery element making it different than bazooka and schreck that require accuracy rolls, it might be bad afterwards, but I'd start with lowering the amount of them at first.
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Illegal_Carrot Offline
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« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2020, 01:02:46 pm »

Shitposting-esque suggestion :

Reduce price to 70mu, keep ability to shoot through shotblockers, reduce range to 19, make it a castable ability, make it do critical engine damage
I'd rather not see it turn into a Sticky Bomb-like ability, I like having it as a full weapon on the battlefield.

PIATs are most dangerous when in a speedy vehicle. Brengun carrier mario kart and or Kangoroo carrier can achieve that.
High speed unit and a weapon that can ignore shot blockers does not make for fun gameplay. I think the kangoroo carrier makes it the most problematic of them all since brengun carriers have limited firing slots compared to that thing.

Even if PIAT loses its ability to fire over shotblockers, it retains its artillery element making it different than bazooka and schreck that require accuracy rolls, it might be bad afterwards, but I'd start with lowering the amount of them at first.
PIATs have many innate advantages to them, which is why they're so difficult to balance, and must be priced so highly, almost as expensive as RRs, for just a regular non-doctrinal main-line HHAT weapon. A fast open-topped vehicle like a Bren or a Kangaroo acts as such a powerful force multiplier that anything you design around on-foot use can easily be abused when firing 4x with full accuracy out of a moving Kangaroo (which have infinite repairs, BTW). The Bren is at least somewhat limited by it's relatively low HP and light armor and 2x firing slots, but the Kangaroos overwhelming advantages (a mark of ToV's poor design) and ubiquity make it extraordinarily frustrating to play against. I'm fine with the Kangaroo having 4x firing slots, and all the other advantages it has, if only I could ever engage it in actual battle. But it's always sneaking around, just as fast as a light vehicle, sniping you with 4x PIATs through entire buildings, and that's just patently No Fun. Nobody likes getting sniped by PIATs. There's no realistic counter-play to it in most situations, because neither vCoH nor EIR were designed arounds engaging eachother through solid objects

Speaking of Kangaroos, maybe change its unlock selection name to "Royal Canadian Artillery" unlock in Royal Infantry (and maybe throw in a Supercharged 25 Pounder), as the Ram II chassis that the Ram Kangaroo is based on is a Canadian vehicle. Seems like it's the least you could do for the doctrine that previously was RCA. Would be a great unlock.
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Tachibana Offline
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« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2020, 02:39:34 pm »

Your concern seems to stem more from the Kangaroo/Bren combo rather than the sapper PIAT as a base. This would kinda be like nerfing MP44s/Panzershrecks/Flamers because they can occasionally become oppressive when combined with mass IHT useage w/ doc buffs.
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Unkn0wn Offline
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« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2020, 02:48:40 pm »

The Roo thing is a bit of a gimmick though, the repair kit is infinite for 40 F yes but it only repairs about 1/3 of a Roo's health and then you're hit with what if I recall correctly is like a 2 minute cooldown. In all, you spend more time sitting around repair cycling than you do actually in the action.

Compare that with the infinite repair on the JP4 which is only 50 F and is a passive repair rather than a kit...
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Illegal_Carrot Offline
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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2020, 09:44:30 pm »

Your concern seems to stem more from the Kangaroo/Bren combo rather than the sapper PIAT as a base. This would kinda be like nerfing MP44s/Panzershrecks/Flamers because they can occasionally become oppressive when combined with mass IHT useage w/ doc buffs.
No, it's definitely about the PIAT. The Kangaroo acts as a force multiplier, yes, but the issue wouldn't exist in the first place if PIATs didn't have wonky characteristics. 4x PIATs sitting in a Kangaroo is not as big of a threat if those PIATs aren't shooting 35m through solid objects.

The Roo thing is a bit of a gimmick though, the repair kit is infinite for 40 F yes but it only repairs about 1/3 of a Roo's health and then you're hit with what if I recall correctly is like a 2 minute cooldown. In all, you spend more time sitting around repair cycling than you do actually in the action.

Compare that with the infinite repair on the JP4 which is only 50 F and is a passive repair rather than a kit...
The Kangaroo is an issue with or without the infinite repairs. At only 70FU (110FU with upgrade, still less than most Light Vehicles) an effective "turret" of 4x PIATs and/or Bren LMGs is far more effective almost any LV's weapons, and just as effective, if not more so, than many tanks' weapons. That's just the nature of what happens when you balance infantry weapons around their use by infantry, and then give those infantry access to the best open-topped transport in the game, along with the way COH mechanics work (infantry firing with full accuracy from a moving transport, etc.).

As for infinite repairs, I'm just opposed to the implementation of infinite repair mechanics in the mod in general. I feel they are antithetical to the very nature of EIR. Units should be called on, used as efficiently as possible, and then called off or destroyed. Not kept around as infinitely-repairing frankenstein units. The fact that it only applies to these two units in particular is indicative of how incongruous it is with the rest of the mod. Every other form of repair is limited in some way. If we're not going to have an OMG-style wear & tear system, then we need to be careful not to give units essentially endless HP pools. But this is getting beyond the scope of PIATs.
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NightRain Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3930



« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2020, 03:19:55 am »

I do believe that the ability to fire over obstacles shouldn't be allowed when in a vehicle but I don't think it can be blocked in anyway so simply disallowing fire over obstacles is one I'd suggest and would like to see. No more just running and stopping to eliminate scout, support weapon, infantry, or other without risk of receiving return fire. It is a significant nerf to a piat yes, so the price would be cheaper as a result.


Alternatively at this current moment I believe the buff that makes PIAT projectiles faster should not be a MP upgrade but a MU upgrade to boost the double PIAT cost closer to double schrecks. If this speed is the one that makes them good, then it should be adjusted in cost.
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Shabtajus Offline
EIR Veteran
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The very best player of one of the four factions.

« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2020, 03:03:36 am »

Why nerf things which do not cause any problems? Itís not like piats are op or something in that matter.

Shooting over obstacles is an unique ability piats have compared to othe HHAT ant this ability offers different game plays/strategies. Why nerf it and make game more dull?
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I feel like if Smokaz and Shab met up it would be a 50/50 tossup to see which one of them robbed the other first.
Tries to convince people he's a good guy,says things like this. Scumbag Shab.
tank130 Offline
Sugar Daddy
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Posts: 8967


« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2020, 10:21:46 am »

Oh gawd........ I will regret this......

I agree with shab.......

Piats are fine. Piats in a roo is an issue though.
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GrayWolf Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1638



« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2020, 03:03:14 am »

I still remember when people made fun of me for calling PIAT the best handheld. We've made the full circle.
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