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Author Topic: M2 Mortar  (Read 1262 times)
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Illegal_Carrot Offline
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« on: July 02, 2020, 12:22:09 am »

Hello all, I am writing today about the M2 90mm Mortar "Goon Gun".

Quote
3 - Goon Gun
   Barrage (incl. smoke) range decreased from 105 m to 85 m.
   Barrage recharge increased from 30 s to 60 s.
   Smoke barrage recharge increased from 120 s to 240 s.
   Range decreased from 100 m to 80 m.

I feel the changes to the M2 were excessive, and these changes have really killed what made the unit unique, while failing to properly address the greatest flaws of the unit.

The M2's biggest draw was it's ability to fire a larger shell than a standard mortar, and at longer ranges. This is fairly standard for a larger mortar. While I feel Artillery Plotting maps had (and still potentially has) an excessive impact on indirect fire weapons, especially the 90mm, I do not think by any means that the 90mm needed to have it's range reduced quite so much. It's max range and barrage range should both be set to 90m. 90m max range is the sweet spot where the 90mm's extra price (+50% Manpower, +25% Munitions, +50% Population) over the standard mortar really pays off, and the M2 90mm gives Infantry doctrine a sort-of-mortar, sort-of-artillery option to counter Axis mortars and field guns like the LeIG and Nebelwerfer.

The M2's biggest drawback, however, it's it's propensity to friendly fire indiscriminately. The 90mm shell's slow speed and long travel times means that it's unlikely to hit singular moving targets, and far more likely to hit friendly troops during the free fire process. This is potentially an issue for all mortars, but it's especially true for the 90mm, due to it's slow projectile and large AOE. What is even more unfortunate is that the Hold Fire ability resets itself every time the mortar moves, making it very unreliable method of avoiding friendly fire. Because of this, the M2 90mm should have its free fire ability removed, and made a barrage-only weapon. Keep the barrage timers right where they're at. The 90mm could also potentially get a price increase to 90 Munitions, if necessary.

Please also give the 90mm Mortar the 25 Pounder VFX/SFX.

Let's look at Artillery Plotting Maps next:
Quote
60mm Mortar, 90mm Mortar, Rifle Grenades:
+10m Range, Damage -25%, Scatter -33%
I think if excessive mortar range is your concern, then Artillery Plotting Maps is your culprit. The +10m bonus should be reduced to +5m. This +5 would give 60mm mortars exactly equal range to their 81mm Axis counterparts, evening the field between them. The 90mm would now only have 95m range max (vs the 110m max range that was possibly before); still effective, but not excessive. The +5m range would give Rifle Grenades 40m range, equal to an LMG (vs the current 45m range, equal to a deployed HMG)

I think the -X% Damage debuff should be removed entirely. Giving a large -% Scatter buff, and then trying to counter-balance it with a -% Damage debuff, is unnecessary and overly complex. Just reduce the -% Scatter buff to a more reasonable amount, and eliminate the Damage debuff altogether.

So (this part of) the new Artillery Plotting Maps would be a much more reasonable:
Quote
60mm Mortar, 90mm Mortar, Rifle Grenades:
+5m Range, -20% Scatter

In all my games of playing Infantry, I feel it would be best to change the Goon Gun's range to 90m, and normalize the Artillery Plotting Maps selection a bit.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 12:37:10 am by Illegal_Carrot » Logged

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Unkn0wn Offline
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« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2020, 03:00:27 am »

Honestly, i agree with your assessment that the nerfs have left it feeling lacklustre but that's not so much because of the nerfs themselves as it is by the fact that the old whopping 100m range was making up for its total inadequacy as a seperate unit from the howitzer and regular mortar.

So I think we should first take a step back and think through what role we want to unit to fulfill in an infantry company. Personally I'm not convinced there's much of a role for it at all alongside the howitzer on the one hand and the regular mortar on the other. But I see some people have gotten quite attached to it and the idea of a heavier mortar (MU based alternative to the howi and  packing a smaller punch) should be workable and appeals to me in principle. But then it probably needs a more significant redesign.

On Arty plotting maps, I'm actually not sure the 10m range is applied to mortars? Can someone confirm that be the case? The -25% damage is arguably also a serious debuff now that the scatter reduction has been cut in half. So I agree that could probably be reduced or cut alltogether if we're happy to tack on a significant price increase on the ability.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 03:05:22 am by Unkn0wn » Logged
TheVolskinator Offline
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« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2020, 06:41:54 am »

It's a 4.2-inch, or 107-mm, mortar, for the record.
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NightRain Offline
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« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2020, 10:59:06 pm »

Reason why it was decreased was because it gave allies a mortar that could outrange axis mortar and thus brought a balance issue where there previously had not been one. Allied mortars always had shorter range to axis counter parts.
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Illegal_Carrot Offline
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« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2020, 08:12:58 pm »

Reason why it was decreased was because it gave allies a mortar that could outrange axis mortar and thus brought a balance issue where there previously had not been one. Allied mortars always had shorter range to axis counter parts.
This argument doesn't really hold water though. The US 60mm mortar already had its range increased from 75m -> 80m to address its inadequacy versus the WM 81mm mortar. The +5m max range is enough to give the Axis mortar a slight edge, but not enough to reign unchecked.

If anything, having the 60mm mortar's range be 5m less than the 81mm actually sets a precedent for the 107mm to have 5m more:
Quote
Mortar Unit | Max Range
US 60mm | 80m
WM 81mm | 85m
US 107mm | 90m
Makes a lot of sense.

But also, the 60mm mortar having shorter range than the 81mm mortar has nothing to do with the range of the 107mm, regardless. The M2 107mm mortar is a doctrinal unit, and very expensive. +100MP, +15MU, and +2 Pop more expensive than even the Axis 81mm mortar, and requiring a doctrine selection to unlocks plus a second to maximize effectiveness. Surely that price warrants an increase in effectiveness, no? Especially if it becomes a barrage-only weapon. With the scatter reduction of Artillery Plotting Maps reduced by half, the worst of the Goon Gun has been addressed.

We can also examine the 107mm projectile further. I feel the projectile's characteristics are at the core of most issues with the unit.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 08:15:28 pm by Illegal_Carrot » Logged
Tachibana Offline
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« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2020, 08:47:58 pm »

Quote
The US 60mm mortar already had its range increased from 75m -> 80m to address its inadequacy versus the WM 81mm mortar

Just to make sure everyone is clear on this here.

weapon range =/= barrage range
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Illegal_Carrot Offline
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« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2020, 09:13:40 pm »

It's a 4.2-inch, or 107-mm, mortar, for the record.
All the more reason for it to lob a larger shell, farther. And for it to have a more satisfying "effect on target".

Just to make sure everyone is clear on this here.

weapon range =/= barrage range
Oh snap, I never even realized US 60mm had 85m barrage range. That explains why they always seem to overperform lol.

But a mortar shouldn't have a barrage range longer than its max range, that's just counter-intuitive and potentially confusing design. Barrage range should be dropped back down to 80m then. But that's unrelated to the main point.
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Illegal_Carrot Offline
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« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2020, 09:20:04 pm »

Artillery Plotting Maps also needs to be examined any time you examine the 60/81/107mm dynamic. Which is why I would also propose reducing APM's range bonus by 5m, to counter-effect my proposed 107mm's 5m range increase (from current version); vanilla Goon Guns would get 5 more range base, but would still have the same max range with APM that they would get currently. It's a fair trade-off, and it makes the 107mm a much more worthwhile unit, while addressing Artillery Plotting Maps' most overbearing buff.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 09:25:47 pm by Illegal_Carrot » Logged
TheVolskinator Offline
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« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2020, 09:29:55 pm »

The base US mortar weapon has 80 m range. The extra barrage range doesn't break it or make it OP in any way (imo); it just gives it rough parity (or is it exact? idk) with the 81-mm.
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Tachibana Offline
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« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2020, 09:36:45 pm »

omg, you guys, really?

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Illegal_Carrot Offline
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« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2020, 10:16:51 pm »

omg, you guys, really?


What is that?

What about m2_60mm_mortar_barrage.rgd? That's what I'm looking at.
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