Why are american soldiers the best?

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[Libertine]

Subway bombings were 3 years ago, amazingly enough.
And the hell? Saddam was using millions to supply arms for Bin Laden.

@DeadlyShoe :
Claiming that the US government lied to us to get us involved in the war fails on a much simpler level. For almost the same reason 9/11 conspiracy theories do. I repeat my question.
Why would the government shoot themselves in the foot in such a insane, idiotic way?
No one in the gov is that stupid, it doesn't make much sense.

Oh, and what exactly do you define the "WMD conspiracy theory" to be? You got me a bit confused.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5223932/
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0124-01.htm
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WMDlies.html

[Wraith547]

go on living in your perfect world where the US saved the world by invading iraq and afganistan.
continue to believe your gods gift to humanity and the world would tumble into chaos without you. oh, and do continue to watch fox news, other channels may put a scratch on your perception of the world and how everyone else depends on you.

And you can go on having a miss-informed, slanted view of Americans that doesn't actually represent 99% of the populace. If ignorance is bliss, I can imagine you are smiling.

[AmPM]

If youll notice we havent had one terrorist attack in the united states since 9/11, Do you know why that is?  Because after 9/11 we went and hunted terrorists down.  We invaded Afghanistan, we invaded Iraq.  We capture those prisoners and put them in those horrible prisons.  Sometimes mistakes happen and innocent people end up in those prisons but like I said before, its a war and in this war its hard to tell the differance between friend or foe.  Shit happens, get over it.

where i live we havent had a terrorist attack in hmm, 30 years and that one back then was directed at OPEC and not the Country itself. wanna know why that is ? cause we dont try to shove our own opinion and views down everyone elses throat trying to tell them what to think and saying that they should be happy you bombed their country back to the stoneage and they now have a 500 times higher chance to fall victim to violence then under saddams rule.

go on living in your perfect world where the US saved the world by invading iraq and afganistan.
continue to believe your gods gift to humanity and the world would tumble into chaos without you. oh, and do continue to watch fox news, other channels may put a scratch on your perception of the world and how everyone else depends on you.

im outta here, theres just no argueing with fools

Isn't this jamming your opinion down other peoples throats? Just curious.

[Draygon]

Out of curiosity, where is this perfect place you live Libertine?

[roflmao]

@Libertine :
Ah the irony, whats really interesting is that www.whatreallyhappened.com supports the 9/11 conspiracy that we all consider to be ridiculous bullshit :
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/archives/cat_911.html

Just supports my claim that "Govt lied to public to get us involved in a pointless war" is a conspiracy theory itself.

And, the topic we are discussing is not whether WMD's actually were in Iraq or not, in fact your first article is in a way supports the goverment, by showing that they are being honest.

The question is whether the gov deliberately lied about WMD's being in Iraq, or if the intellegence agency really fucked up (as they have in the past numerous times), common sense and rationality scream out the latter IMO.


The most I will give you is that the gov claimed to have definite proof about things they did not have definite proof of. WMD's is the clear example of this, but saying that they hatched a plan to deliberately lie to the american public to get into a war for no real motive at all is a bit looney. The main questions no one has answered effectively is :

If they knew there were no WMD's in Iraq as a certainty, why would they :
1) do something so utterly stupid
2) think about going into the war at all, for what real motive.



For the same reason I am not going to belive that the gov killed 3000 people just because they are "bloodthirsty assholes", I am not going to belive the gov deliberately lied to us as a plan to get involved in a war that would accomplish almost nothing,  unless I have a really REALLY  good reason to.

(Oh man, I am so overly passionate about these subjects )

[Escforreality]

To everyone thats reads this thread, I believe everything Noam Chomsky has to say on the matter to be correct.

Read: Hegemony or Survival.

Its scary, it really is. The war in Iraq is a big "FUCK YOU!" to, Europe, the United Nations and world wide public opinion. No matter what way you cut it.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

The question is whether the gov deliberately lied about WMD's being in Iraq, or if the intellegence agency really fucked up (as they have in the past numerous times), common sense and rationality scream out the latter IMO.

The Government didn't lie. There is no "The Government". It's specific people who are on the record as making factually untrue and unsupportable statements. George Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Condileeza Rice, Colin Powell and many others.  Most of all Dick Cheney, who personally created intelligence offices with the specific purpose of creating a justification for invading Iraq.  At least one major piece of evidence is known to be a complete fabrication, and even before the war there was NO piece of evidence that was considered reliable.  

You couldn't convict someone of shoplifting with what we had before the war.  Eighty percent of it would be thrown out of court, and the rest is weak.

From a couple years ago:

Yes, their defense of Bush claiming Iraq had mobile biological labs, when Iraq did not, is that Bush didn't know that our intelligence agencies had already disproven the claim.

That's nice. Our president is selling us on a war when he's not even in the loop on the reasons, or lack thereof, for going to war in the first place. Nice. So who should we listen to next time the White House wants us to go to war, since Bush isn't in the loop?

The White House's second contention is even more laughable. You see, it takes many months for the intelligence folks to determine whether we did or didn't find evidence of WMD in Iraq, and Bush spoke BEFORE we had determined if the evidence was real or not.

Did you get that? Bush told us equivocally that we'd found WMD, when in fact, he knew the team sent to determine if we'd found WMD wouldn't reach its conclusion for months to come. So, Bush publicly confirmed we had found WMD when he knew we weren't sure yet, and wouldn't know for months. Tell me again how this makes things better?

So, either Bush is out of the loop and has no idea what the facts are regarding America's decision-making when it comes to going to war, or Bush likes to jump the gun and make definitive statements to the American people about why we need to go to war, but he uses evidence that he knows isn't even real yet.

Ugh.

They promoted anyone in the Intelligence community who told them what they wanted to hear and marginalized those who didn't. 

Intelligence IS fuzzy. That's why when you hear "I reckon I'll have a BLT" You don't start a fucking war!  Because everyone KNOWS its fuzzy.  The guy you hired to find WMD quotes is saying "Sounds like WMD to me" and the other guy says "I went back and checked the recording, he said BLT".  They just ignore that and start the war because they don't really care whether it's WMD or BLT, they KNOW they are doing the right thing.  They just need something to convince everyone else.  Saddam is a bad man and those bad men all know eachother anyway, so hey! it could be true!

Pisses me off so much.  The war in Iraq could end tomorrow and it will still end up costing a TRILLION dollars. Did you know they fired a guy because he thought it would cost $200 billion?  Back in the Magical Sparkle Pony days it was considered bad form to go outside the "free" to "50 billion" boundaries.

Thousands of Americans & Coalition dead, tens of thousands of casualties...anywhere from 100,000 to a million Iraqi dead, depending on how you count. God only knows how many Iraqi casualties. 

But hey, understandable mistake, could happen to anyone.

[roflmao]

I acknowledged that "the government" (since you dislike the over-generalization, replace that with Bush), jumped the gun and claimed things as facts, that they were uncertain of. This can be called incompetence, and yes its wrong, however

How much more obvious could it be? They didn't care if it was true or not, they just wanted to justify their set-in-stone plans for invading Iraq

Is "the purest form of bullshit", you still haven't answered the two fundemental questions that sends this "theory" packing.

1) Why would they do such a utterly stupid thing. That is, shoot themselves in the foot.
2) What are their set-in-stone plans? If they knew there werent any WMD's as a certainty, why would they want to invade Iraq in the first place?

It simply makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. If they knew there were no WMD's why would they fabricate a lie to get into a war that would make them themselves look like incompetent assholes, no politician makes himself look stupid on purpose. You only require a IQ above room temperature to figure that one out. The idea is absurd.

It wasn't just Bush who belived there were WMD's in Iraq, pretty much every freaking intellegence agency in the UN came to the same conclusion. So what now? Was it a world-wide fabrication? There are other explanations that don't involve nationwide or world-wide plots to do stupid stuff that explain the no-WMD situation.

And even up to date you have Iraqi generals defending the US "intellegence agency" :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Sada

As far as I know the claim that Saddam moved uranium and/or WMD's to Syria is still very much a possibility. We after all had satelite pictures of Iraq's WMD facilities.
(sorry for the insane amount of edits)

[roflmao]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WMD_theories_in_the_aftermath_of_the_2003_Iraq_War

[Jedi1]

Regaurding the reason for it I've already said. OIL! They want to keep the oil  in the ground so the big oil companys can keep the prices up because the oil in there is extreamly cheep to get out of the ground.

And you still havn't come up with a reason so little rekage was found at the Pentagone, and why the "plane" circuled around the pentagon to hit hte opisite side a manuver that gave more time for some one to shoot him down and destroyed all files relating to the investigation of the dissaperance of 2 trillion dollars from the defence froces budget, 2 trillion dollars. Not exactly loos change.

[lompocus]

Oh god I'm not going through 4 pages of replies again. Let me squash all you idiots' arguments with the Chewbacca theory:

I understand you all think the US is the root of all evil and all associated with the US is pure evil, as your non-american idiot propaganda teaches you to take all american contributions for granted, but here is exhibit A:



This, is chewbacca. Chewbacca is a 7' wookie from some fuckin tree-huggin' planet in some frickin' all-nonsense galaxy where big-ass motherflippin' 7' tall beasts from hell party down with 2' critters called ewoks that kill heavily armed men with sticks and big frickin' rocks.

That, people, makes no sense. Jedi's idiotic conspiracy theories make no sense. This is like Chewbacca killing 3000 ewoks for nothing, then getting arrested for killing all those ewoks. What did Chewbacca get out of all this? Nothing! It makes no sense!

This argument makes no sense! Nothing you people say makes sense! Do you people even care to study anything? Do you people care to provide some backup to your argument before calling everying a bullshitter? Do you automatically think Big Brother is the answer to all evil, and see him as the figurehead Chewbacca for which you put all the blame on (even if you idiots did vote for the current White House president. Twice. Against my shouting at you guys for 8 years THAT IT WAS A BAD IDEA).

Let's think about it for a second. If Gore was in office and he recieved oil funding and Al Queda blew up the towers, would it still be a conspiracy? If Mccain was up there (remember, he was going to win the 2000 nomination until the Bushites totally sabotaged his campaign) would it still be a conspiracy? What about Kerry, cleaning up the mess? If he suddenly did what needed to be done and obliterated any form of terrorists at the necessary expense of every single motherfucker in the area dying (who didn't comply with US action) and ended the war two years ago, you all would still be bitching and moaning. You see, you people are so hipocritical you MAKE NO SENSE, just like Chewbacca.

I guess now, at the advent of a very screwy 2008 election, it is finally time for me to say, "I told you so." That is directed at the 50% of america that wanted Bush and at the 90% of the rest of the world that continues to make it hell for us to clean up after your messes.

*kudos to anyone who gets the SP reference*

[They Call Me SpitFire]

To everyone thats reads this thread, I believe everything Noam Chomsky has to say on the matter to be correct.

Read: Hegemony or Survival.

Its scary, it really is. The war in Iraq is a big "FUCK YOU!" to, Europe, the United Nations and world wide public opinion. No matter what way you cut it.

Care to explain what you mean. What if some bitch in a plane went and flew into the effiel tower and blew it up? Wouldn't you think France would go blow the mofos up, thats the same thing as the World Trade Centers are to us. So how 'bout I also explain several I MEAN several countries in Iraq,Afganhistan,& that other one I can't think about Clueless about the world aren't I X.X researching helps

[They Call Me SpitFire]

btw lompocus I agree this is a pointless and stupid convesation, but it gives me something to do in my EMO world

[Unkn0wn]

Wouldn't you think France would go blow the mofos up

No. You don't invade a nation because some radicals operating within that nation organise a terrorist attack on your country.

[jackmccrack]

so subtle, so sweet

[wraith547EIR]

Wouldn't you think France would go blow the mofos up

No. You don't invade a nation because some radicals operating within that nation organise a terrorist attack on your country.

So what exactly would you do?

let it go?
ask the other government to do something about it, even though they will refuse?

[lompocus]

Wouldn't you think France would go blow the mofos up

No. You don't invade a nation because some radicals operating within that nation organise a terrorist attack on your country.

...And we, people, have, on this momentous and historic day, found the perfect example of why the modern world is going nowhere.

@ warith: That's what the europeans continue to use as their tactics (luckily the recent french president is less french and take quite a staunch stance on terrorism and chaos in his country. Maybe because he's not even french). That's why they outlaw teaching the Holocaust in a great deal many european schools because it will 'anger the arabs to violence'.

[jackmccrack]

I think you guys missed the humor in his post.

[lompocus]

I think you guys missed the humor in his post.

[Unkn0wn]

That's why they outlaw teaching the Holocaust in a great deal many european schools because it will 'anger the arabs to violence'.

That's complete bullshit coming from someone who probably doesn't even live in Europe.
Pretty much all countries in Europe teach about the holocaust, many schools even make trips to freaking Auschwitz just to show students what it was like. Denying the holocaust without any study backing it up is forbidden by law in most European countries because it's considered highly racist.

If you there's terrorists operating within a Middle-eastern country, you don't just invade that country to deal with them, also punishing the majority of the innocent population in the process. Not only do you start a whole Crusade/Jihad by invading a middle-east country, you just end up fueling the radical organisation even further.

Just look at what's happening in the Middle East today.