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[Thtb-Ally]

Stug is food for anything that moves duh. Well you dont attack a antitank-tank with a tank do you? A rr squad or Rangers can easly kill a stuf 1on1 without loseing more than 1 man.

[HaroquenI]

Really a StuG is a Pak with a motor and a much bigger sheild on the front. That's why it pays to either circle them to death of just hit them with man packed AT

[GamerAndy]

Stug is food for anything that moves duh. Well you dont attack a antitank-tank with a tank do you? A rr squad or Rangers can easly kill a stuf 1on1 without loseing more than 1 man.

Rangers have alot of trouble 1v1'ing a stug because the frontal armor has a very high chance of absorbing a hit entirely, assuming the wildly inaccurate zook even hits - At close range stugs are exceptionally good at running over rangers.

RR's are good at killing everything except KCH - but thats a whole other balance thread

Seriously though, nerf the frontal armor penetration of RRs vs. anything heavier than an ostwind and suddenly AB would stop being OMFGPWN that they are now - This is and continues to be the single biggest imbalance in EIR today

[|-|Cozmo|-|]

if people have 5+ RR squads (most do) then their AI is really hit hard, not many nades or MG etc will be a threat to you. capitalize on it...

[GamerAndy]

if people have 5+ RR squads (most do) then their AI is really hit hard, not many nades or MG etc will be a threat to you. capitalize on it...

It goes both ways, with 5 RR squads you really dont need any other AT - most AB players I know get 5-6 RRs and pump all their fuel into crocs (3 or 4), they dont need AT guns so that frees up the MP to spam more rifles or AB, and then they pump the majority of their RBs into manpower so they can get more AB to out-attrition

Trust me, I play with the top 2 AB players this war almost every day - RR's are just as disgustingly overpowered this war as they were last war when I played against them with a terror company.

[Bodybag2224-Armor]

I had always said that rr's were balanced due to their shitty dammage, however the fact that they penetrate every times forces you to run away if you have no AI around. So I think that by nerfing the penetration would be a good start but perhaps increase dammage to compensate.

[Sach]

I swear people have never heard of pumas or ostwinds. I know, I'll counter that RR squad with my Stug and my Panther!

[GamerAndy]

RR's are intended to be an anti light vehicle weapon, similar to bazookas - The difference from zooks is that while zooks do more damage, they have shitty accuracy and penetration vs. heavy tanks front armor - RR's have pinpoint accuracy and can knock out heavy armor with ease because they penetrate frontal armor 9 times out of 10.

In VCOH this is balanced because Airborne themselves are not very survivable, especially since when you call them in they have no upgrades and you can only bring in one squad at a time - in EIR what you end up with is packs of vetted RR's on the field mowing through any sort of heavy armor that comes their way

Yesterday in a game with Forceman, his blob of 4 vet3 RR squads ran up to max range on Natedogs tiger, literally fired 1 volley at its front armor, destroyed it, and ran away without losing a single man

It doesn't help that there are several upgrades in the AB doctrine that increase penetration on the RRs - With AB elite and AT eagles it is literally 100% chance to penetrate the frontal armor of a tiger, and at vet3 with AB elite all damage has a 1.33x multiplier applied to it so the whole "RR's don't do much damage" is negated - They actually do more damage per shot penetrated than a bazooka, and a bazooka has about a 18% chance to penetrate IF it hits, which is unlikely - Compare this to a base vCOH recoilless rifle, which has a BASE 75% chance to penetrate the frontal armor of a tiger or king tiger with every shot -After AB Elite and AT Eagles that number is like 105% chance to penetrate

This shit is silly, having blobs like that actually makes my Tank Reapers not very useful believe it or not because the mob is so much more mobile and survivable   How nuts is that?

[|-|Cozmo|-|]

if people have 5+ RR squads (most do) then their AI is really hit hard, not many nades or MG etc will be a threat to you. capitalize on it...

It goes both ways, with 5 RR squads you really dont need any other AT - most AB players I know get 5-6 RRs and pump all their fuel into crocs (3 or 4), they dont need AT guns so that frees up the MP to spam more rifles or AB, and then they pump the majority of their RBs into manpower so they can get more AB to out-attrition

Trust me, I play with the top 2 AB players this war almost every day - RR's are just as disgustingly overpowered this war as they were last war when I played against them with a terror company.

as axis, Every version save the last two wars, i never feared RR's, the crocs fell to paks and schrecks and my MG's LMG's and mp40's managed to fend off the extra riflemen/AB more often than not.

But i didn't use tanks all that much, so maybe people who may be hot harder.

But axis can do a similar thing, spam 12 stugs, you don't need any more AT so you can then spam KCH, MP40's,LMG's, or MG's to counter the AB, you can also pump more RB's into MP to re-outattrition the AB player.


In response to your post above mine:

Vet is something different, and i will agree and blob of 4 vet 3 RR AB is bad for tanks but not for you vet 3 KCH. also with all that pop in 4 AB squads he wont have much else on the field, if you find a vetted RR blob don't bring up tanks...

[Bodybag2224-Armor]

I wish i had seen that volley taking out the Tiger, I hate it when 4 shreked stormies pop up and alpha-strike my sherman.

[GamerAndy]

I swear people have never heard of pumas or ostwinds. I know, I'll counter that RR squad with my Stug and my Panther!

The point is that vs a vetted blob of RR's, pumas and ostwinds literally die in a single volley
and most AB players back up the blob with a croc - It's pretty much the ultimate combo

[GamerAndy]

if people have 5+ RR squads (most do) then their AI is really hit hard, not many nades or MG etc will be a threat to you. capitalize on it...

It goes both ways, with 5 RR squads you really dont need any other AT - most AB players I know get 5-6 RRs and pump all their fuel into crocs (3 or 4), they dont need AT guns so that frees up the MP to spam more rifles or AB, and then they pump the majority of their RBs into manpower so they can get more AB to out-attrition

Trust me, I play with the top 2 AB players this war almost every day - RR's are just as disgustingly overpowered this war as they were last war when I played against them with a terror company.

as axis, Every version save the last two wars, i never feared RR's, the crocs fell to paks and schrecks and my MG's LMG's and mp40's managed to fend off the extra riflemen/AB more often than not.

But i didn't use tanks all that much, so maybe people who may be hot harder.

But axis can do a similar thing, spam 12 stugs, you don't need any more AT so you can then spam KCH, MP40's,LMG's, or MG's to counter the AB, you can also pump more RB's into MP to re-outattrition the AB player.

You want to play us?

[|-|Cozmo|-|]

umm no, because my axis company has not played a single game this war so it has no CP's, RB's or Vet, so it would not be an accurate example of RR's over powered only a vet rapage.

[Bodybag2224-Armor]

most AB players back up the blob with a croc - It's pretty much the ultimate combo

Negetive. Shreks+blob of vetted KCH or Heavy tanks+Blob of vetted KCH. Add in possible FTFL and medpacks and you need to go loof for some sort of off map to destroy that shit.

[Sach]

I swear people have never heard of pumas or ostwinds. I know, I'll counter that RR squad with my Stug and my Panther!

The point is that vs a vetted blob of RR's, pumas and ostwinds literally die in a single volley
and most AB players back up the blob with a croc - It's pretty much the ultimate combo

I swear, the day I lose and Ostwind to a RR blob, assuming nothing is blocking me, I will quit CoH because I have forgotton how to play the game. With the old Airbourne Elite yes, with the nerfed one, no.

[GamerAndy]

most AB players back up the blob with a croc - It's pretty much the ultimate combo

Negetive. Shreks+blob of vetted KCH or Heavy tanks+Blob of vetted KCH. Add in possible FTFL and medpacks and you need to go loof for some sort of off map to destroy that shit.

Shreks die to blobbed AB with recoilless, heavy tanks die in a SINGLE VOLLEY to vetted recoilless even blobs of vetted KCH die to vetted recoilless if they manage to keep them on the run -  KCH godawful accuracy at any distance more than 6 - even at very close range they get a 50% accuracy nerf for firing on the move - Crocs eat KCH for breakfast and thats really the only thing that can knock out heavily vetted blobbed Recoilless squads

We're gonna get into theorycrafting if this continues - Are you really telling me that you think that the range, rate of fire, damage, and penetration for RRs is fine against heavy tank frontal armor?

[Sach]

I think its fine, RRs are a hard counter to heavy tank, one of the few. Not only do they counter heavy tanks but they also counter the continual recycling of heavy tanks you see in 3v3 games with multiple RBs.

[GamerAndy]

lol
I don't understand how you guys can look at these penetration values vs. the front armor of very heavily armored tanks and think

"Yup, this looks like it fits in the balance" 


Vs. Vet0 Tiger armor

Pak Gun: 24%
Sherman: 24%
Sherman Upgun: 45%
Pershing: 50%
M10: 55%
Henschel Anti-Tank Air-strike - 45%
Panzer 4 gun: 46%
Panther Gun: 84%
Tiger gun: 64%
King tiger gun: 126%

Panzerschrek: 45%
Bazooka: 18%
Recoilless Rifle: 75% WITH NO UPGRADES - With T2 AT Eagles and T4 AB Elite it bumps to 102% with 133% damage

Keep in mind all these stats are vs. the FRONTAL ARMOR of a TIGER TANK

[Unkn0wn]

Yawn, these endless discussion that alwas end up being 'Unit X counters Unit Y... NO unit Z counters it better' blablablabla are getting really old. Is this all balance talk on this forum has devolved into?

[GamerAndy]

Yawn, these endless discussion that alwas end up being 'Unit X counters Unit Y... NO unit Z counters it better' blablablabla are getting really old. Is this all balance talk on this forum has devolved into?

Theorycrafting at its finest

The definitive question here is: Do the above penetration statistics vs. the frontal armor off a high cost heavy tank seem balanced in comparison to everything else.  Then add an additional 10% to that for the t2 AT Eagles and ask yourself again.  Then add a further 18% to that for AB Elite and ask yourself again.

I think, as an allied player, it's easy to see how broken that is.