Sealion

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[Bodybag2224-Armor]

Sounded like range, and what did they have at this stage of the war to reach the US? Not something that came at the end of the war or that was merely a concept.

[PrydainII]

Acker, you mean "cant reach" (british targets) because of the british air defence or? Since if you go by distance, some german bombers coud even reach new york.

One German Bomber, that was the Fw 200 Condor, but it would need serious modifications and have an assisted take off. Not only that but it would not get back. If the weather is bad it would not be able to take the journey.

Oh yes, and to allow it to fly that distance, weight would have to be taken off, that means no bombs and only the essential crew (Pilot, Co-pilot, Nav Officer).

Also less than 300 Fw 200s where made, that basicaly meant Germany had no heavy bomber like the Lancaster, He-111s and Ju-88s where medium bombers and where too vulnerable to be effective.

[supahpingi]

Göring & Hitler fail.

Nazizm itself fails

[Unkn0wn]

Touché.

[AmPM]

Sounded like range, and what did they have at this stage of the war to reach the US? Not something that came at the end of the war or that was merely a concept.

It wouldn't need to be at this stage, and yes some german strategic bombers could reach the US. Remember this is a hypothetical, obviously with the war in Africa and in Russia going the way they went Sealion didn't have the resources.

Now if they invasion of Russia had taken place in 1940 in the Spring, they could have captured Moscow and turned north and south to capture the oilfields and prevent encircled Russian forces from escaping. Instead of splitting the army groups and focusing on worthless cities (Stalingrad) they should have pushed past.

With Russia out of the picture as a military power in '41, the focus on the North African campaign would have ruined any British hope of winning a land battle. Remember, the entire British focus was in that theatre, and very little German focus was there. So with most or even 50% of the German warmachine active in the area there would be nothing the British could do. With no Britain in North Africa in '42, there is no US invasion of Africa or Allied invasion of Sicily in '43.

Full focus moves to destroying the British islands, completely. Instead of investing resources on the Luftwaffe in the east they could shift back to the west, and once again, more than sufficient force to destroy the RAF.

Sealion in '44 would not be that hard to undertake if they would have understood that total annihilation of the british people was the key.

The key to German failure was the undertaking of the wrong tasks at the wrong time, mostly due to Hitler being insane.

[Prydain]

Once again, I have to state the fact Germany would never be able to bomb the US with the aircraft they had unless they landed when they got there.

And what is this about the UK having 100% focus in North Africa? What about the resources going into the SOE to supply resistance fighters, what about the east India campaign, what about the battle for the Atlantic, the many raids of German held territorys or the various campaigns like Operation Ironclad that where far out but still taking resources.

You have to remind yourself that there was only one allied country in western Europe, Britain had to manage Czechs, Pols, French, Norwegians, Dutch, Belgians, Danish, ect into fighting formations, give them weapons and supplys, feed them and house them. The nation standing alone in Europe basicaly had to run the war effort the world throughout wile Russia focused on defending there own land.

Give credit where its due.

[AmPM]

Yea, I mean Britain had to get almost all of its materials and food from the USA.

And no, the minor raids and so on took almost nothing out of the British resource pool. Their focus was in North Africa. Britain alone against Germany is an easy win for Germany.

[Mauser9731]

I think if they would have renamed it from Sealion to Operation Epic Lulz Europe would be a completely different place.

[acker]

I told everyone to ignore aliens! Ah, well...

Germany didn't have the logistical capability to take Russia in Spring, 1940. For one thing, Germany's supply of artillery ammunition was almost completely depleted after the fall of France. Germany also desperately needed the oil exported from Russia in this time period in order to, you guessed it, attack Russia.

More importantly, it took an entire year to actually plan Barbarossa. Planning it before the Winter War would be an example of telekinesis, something the Germans didn't have.

I would love to have a description and a name of this strategical bomber that could reach the USA and come back. Production details from 1939-1943 would be nice, too.

The British built more aircraft than the Germans over the duration of WWII (British:131,549. German: 117,881.) Not only that, but the British total fighter production is actually more than the total fighter production of Germany up to late 1943. In terms of actual material available for production, Britain produced 614 million pounds of aircraft, compared to Germany's 470 million pounds. Proceed to add in Lend-Lease, and ULTRA. Achieving air supremacy would be...complicated, to say the least.

Besides aerial superiority, the Germans must also build up a Navy that can go toe-to-toe with the Royal Navy (world's largest navy as of 1940) and, of course, the US Navy (the world's largest navy after 1944). Building enough ships to even begin to threaten either navy would require around two or three decades of time. Germany has no landing craft like the US Higgins Boat, nor does it even have a comprehensive Carrier program. Not to mention the sacrifice of steel that could and was used for more immediate concerns (such as, building panzers).

To further complicate matters, Germany must win before 1945; the first atom bomb was to be dropped on Berlin, and Hitler had no knowledge of the Manhattan Project.

In other words, Sealion had to be attempted between September and November of 1941 in order to face a chance of success (if you don't count galactic what-ifs*). Making Sealion work is, of course, an exercise on its own.



Incidentally, it's pretty much impossible to bypass Stalingrad. Germany simply doesn't have the resources to do so without risking the offensive elsewhere.

*It is, after all, theoretically possible that Churchill, Eisenhower, and Stalin suffer dilapidating aneurysms in 1940, and Hitler is suddenly hit on the head with gamma-ray radiation, which makes him less stupid than he actually was.

[planekiller]

sorry to tell all of you guys but sealion would have happened if hitler had continued the bombing raids on  england and took out the rader stations then the germans would have enough time to finish building the h44 class battleships that had 20 inch cannons, that would carry the invasion force to england and take   over the country  yea for Germany  we lost the war     

[Thtb]

Did you forget the secret weapon that woud have defeated all british planes with ease?

[Tym]

Um...an air burst nuke?

[M4 Sherman]

Did you forget the secret weapon that woud have defeated all british planes with ease?

I'm sorry Thtb but as the British proved the fact:
Spitfire>Everything Germany had.

[Smithy17]

Except when experiencing negative Gs. I think its a wonder a spitfire ever shot an enemy down.

Full focus moves to destroying the British islands, completely. Instead of investing resources on the Luftwaffe in the east they could shift back to the west, and once again, more than sufficient force to destroy the RAF.

They already tried to destroy the RAF before war with russia, obviously the Luftwaffe wasn't more than sufficient.

The key to German failure was the undertaking of the wrong tasks at the wrong time, mostly due to Hitler being insane.

You keep saying that it was all Hitler's fault but maybe the Allies wouldn't have made such heavy whether of ww2 if their politicians had been paying attention in the 1930s.

Also everyone seems to be going on as if all the people concerned knew what was happening in the battle of britain. They hardly knew how many enemy planes they were shooting down, how was Hitler supposed to know that the airfield bombing strategy was close to suceeding?

[Saint]

its pretty hard to land troops when the royal navy is pwning you in the face.

[Smithy17]

Look how much trouble the allies had with hundreds of friendly ships to help them, imagine if those ships had been on the other side.

[Mysthalin]

well, your dearest Mysthalin thinks that there was no way operation Sealion would have worked, at all. With the Armies tied down in Afrika and the USSR - there was not even a capable enough landing force at hand to take on Britain's men. Even if the Germans developed an "Uber Pwn Torpedo of Doom, vet 3" and taken out the British fleet(taking into account the US fleet is not in the fight/fighting the japs(either way, tied down), the secret weapon(trained goblins) tearing apart the RAF, Hitler's troops would just have not sufficed to take out what the Brits had at home.
And seeing as neither of the things happened(the navy floats, the RAF flies around), the germans would have suffered loads of casualties getting on the island, and a lot more when getting barraged by naval gun artilery strikes and airstrikes from the RAF while marching as much as from one toilet to the other.

[DerangedGerman]

Fallschirmjagers, people.

[Days of War]

Fallschirmjagers, people.

Fuck! I forgot Britain and absolutely no air defense.

[PrydainII]

Yea, I mean Britain had to get almost all of its materials and food from the USA.

And no, the minor raids and so on took almost nothing out of the British resource pool. Their focus was in North Africa. Britain alone against Germany is an easy win for Germany.

Britain getting almost all of its resources from the US? Wow, last time I was in a classroom learning about this I am pretty sure that there was a reliance on Britain to supply the petroleum and gas from its territorys, particularly in the middle east and elsewhere. I am pretty sure the supplys crossing the Atlantic where metals, coolants, teas, munitions powders, Lend-Lease equipment and the like, this did not win the war but was helpful, especially in Moscow.

The reason of Lend-Lease was to basicaly supply the Allies to keep the US out of the war, I think its safe to say we all wish it did to keep the American lads from dieing but Japan decided it would be a good idea blowing up some ships and here we all are.

AmPM, I don't want to say you are racist or lacking of mind because you are not and you have engaged in the debate but it is fairly condescending to say "Britain alone against Germany is an easy win for Germany" because not only is it wrong, being that the UK was fighting a World War wile Germany was only fighting in Europe and North Africa, but also saying the Germans are in some way superior without definition is like believing the Aryan race bullshit.

Fallschirmjagers, people.

Churchill's words after? "Never in the field of human conflict has so much FAIL lost so many to so few." 

The simple fact is, without the US victory would have been harder but not impossible, nor far from reach. I seriously believe that the war would have played out much differently, since the UK's only option for victory would be to join the USSR in the east by staging another Norwegian campaign and going south through Denmark or from Greece (The most likely), through the Balkans and on to cut Italy, Romania and Bulgaria from Germany. However, my History teacher always maintained it would have been the Sicily/Italy campaign to choose except instead of opening another front in Normandy (Which was only done because the US where in the war) they should have just kept advancing through Italy.