Iraq War - Legal or Illegal

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[CommanderNewbie]

bit off-topic, regardless?  Not sure why Champion brought it up in the first place.

[Tym]

How many americans are with me in saying that I'd just rather bring all our troops home from say, Germany and South Korea, Japan, the East Bloc nations and just say screw you guys and whatever the f*ck happens here I dont give a damn cuz even though we're the biggest dog on the block, you at first didn't want us there so later.

the fact is, at first the US didn't want a dang thing to do with international policy and we were pulled into it cuz Western Europe was so trashed by WW1 and WW2, after that NATO made the US the worlds police, even saying themselves that they need us to be such and over time politicians in this o great country of ours started to tee off on that and somehow think that if they made nice with other nations and screwed its own people in the process that somehow those jerks will get re-elected (it works unfortunately) the fact is, I'm tired of always being the country that everyone asks for help but at the same time tells us how bad we are.

If I were president, my first decree to my troops would be in the famous words of Cartman "screw you guys, Im goin' home"

[Unkn0wn]

Champion, while making a valid point about breaking UN resolution kind of broke his arguement in 2 ways.
First he forgets to mention that by acting unilaterally instead of coming to terms with the UN pretty much killed off it's chance to pull the 'They broke 17 UN resolutions card', by acting the way the US did they ultimately gave the UN the middle finger and went on not giving a shit about what the other nations thought.


Secondly, he brings up Bill :p. Now this is not really something that breaks your arguement but it unfortunately does make me lose some respect. I've watched several of Bill's shows and I'm sorry but I just have to conclude that O' Reiley is a complete asshole. Fox news as a whole is a fucked up biased newssite, I really wonder how this is possible sometimes. The media is supposed to be as unbiased as possible, here in Europe it would be a major disgrace if a mediachannel was this obviously biased.

You're right, he did end up bashing McCain to an extent originally as well, but nowhere near as bad as he has been bashing democrats. In addition to that, now that elections are coming closer, Bill & Fox news as a whole have gotten increasingly supportive of the McCain camp. On top of that, he completely shuts down anyone who tries to criticise them and just starts shouting when he's about to lose a debate. This man is a disgrace to Fox and american media in general.

And don't anyone say we went there for oil because last time I checked gasoline isn't any cheaper.

You fail to realise that whoever's in control of the oil sources makes profit from high oil prices. It's in their best interest that you pay high prices, this is the dirty truth about a capitalist economy. Recently they even decided to drill LESS oil because the OPEC thought the prices were too low. Can you believe that? I for one think it's disgusting.

I'm tired of always being the country that everyone asks for help but at the same time tells us how bad we are.

I disagree, we used to ask you for help, that's when the NATO, etc was created. And the U.S wanted to have influence all across the globe. After the cold war however, the US could've easily stepped down from its world police role  but instead decided to go onto a unilateral cowboying trip. Those days are over, nations are rising that won't take shit from the US like they did before. In addition, the US adventure in iraq has brought a dent in the US' political power and destabilised its own economy.

Back when people asked the US for help, the US was generally popular and well liked.
Things have changed however, the US' unilateral appearance has been fueling anti-US attitudes all across the globe.

[BoDyBaG2224TLS]

You fail to realise that whoever's in control of the oil sources makes profit from high oil prices. It's in their best interest that you pay high prices, this is the dirty truth about a capitalist economy. Recently they even decided to drill LESS oil because the OPEC thought the prices were too low. Can you believe that? I for one think it's disgusting.

While true we don't control it so who exactly are we funding?

And didn't Saudi Arabia leave OPEC? That could mean some oil competition and perhaps lower prices! Still going to make my cooking oil fueled car though.

[Unkn0wn]

The american government doesn't control it, I'm sure some 'private companies' do though.
I'll be honest though, I don't know much about the iraqi oil thing, I haven't really studied it and from what I gathered after the iraq invasion it was never really mentioned again. So what did happen to the iraqi oil? It's quite an interesting question that should be investigated.

[BoDyBaG2224TLS]

I don't know either who has control over it all I know is that if the executive branch of government stays Republican America is fucked..... I mean I don't know what Europeans see but basically this has turned into a popularity contest then an election based off what each person brings. Obama actually talks about things he will do. McCain talks about how Obama doesn't know what he is doing and how he has Palin, I've watched equal amounts of each persons side but have no idea what McCains views are. And if he dies and Palin takes the "throne" I'm moving to a new country. You don't elect a person that says "I just want to know what does the Vice President do, each day"....

[CommanderNewbie]

This is nothing new.

[BoDyBaG2224TLS]

I know, but now that I'm older, this just seems rediculous. I mean the way these campaigns have gone are a tad different from the previous 2 i remember.

[AmPM]

Both candidates are idiots....

[Thtb]

You people cant just overcome your history or ?

So lets vote for the warmongerer again before we possibly have a woman (OMG!) or a BLACK PERSON (OMFG) as president.

Just take the old guy.

Will propatly start world war 3, but how cares at least hes not female/black.

[Nevyen]

The american system was good in theory but combined with ultra capatilism has become devoid of anything resembling real government in my opinion.  The leadership vacum that exists as well makes the situation even more bleak.  There is no real statesman in the running, no individual that strikes you as a person who can lead with a vision beyond the congressional elections or the next smear campaign. 

the media is not independant enough to provide clear and objective commentary and as such what the world sees is somthing to a version of american idol on speed. 

I feel its a generaltional thing, the leaders of old had a sense of purpose defined by global conflict or hardship, its harder when the world we live in now is so very different from what it was when these leaders where forming thier ideas and opinions. 

Suffice to say its a transition from nearly 2 centuries of Pan European dominance to a global hemogany where free market economies and big business dictate the nature of how we live  (queue blade runner anyone?)

[AmPM]

Actually THTB, they pretty much are both incompetent. I would have voted Hilary but Obama and McCain are useless.

[BoDyBaG2224TLS]

I've sat down and read what I've can about both and I'd say that although Obama is inexperienced, he does have a plan at least something that we've lacked for 8 years.

@AMPM why do you see obama and mccain as useless?

[Unkn0wn]

I'll be greatly dissapointed if the american people vote McCain, after 8 years of Bush. Honestly, I thought the american people were fed up with this bullshit, and you'd expect them to vote differently as a result. Now, after 8 dark years for the US a 72 year old man who voted with bush 95% of the times is in the running for president AND ahead in the polls.

It makes you wonder :p.

[BoDyBaG2224TLS]

It makes me sick. Some people are just total, total, total morons. You try and talk to them and rather then give actual information about their candidate they say negetive things towards the opponent. Like I've said, I've heard what Obama brings but basically nothing about McCains plans. I'm really worried about this November.

[Nevyen]

Probably prove that racism is still stong in certain parts of the country, and that the culture has not progressed enough at one end of the spectrum to look beyond colour.

[Unkn0wn]

Ah well, in 2020 white people will be a minority in the US, things might be different then .
In addition, I firmly believe that hillary will become president in 2012, especially if McCain gets elected now.

[Champion]

I don't know either who has control over it all I know is that if the executive branch of government stays Republican America is fucked..... I mean I don't know what Europeans see but basically this has turned into a popularity contest then an election based off what each person brings. Obama actually talks about things he will do. McCain talks about how Obama doesn't know what he is doing and how he has Palin, I've watched equal amounts of each persons side but have no idea what McCains views are. And if he dies and Palin takes the "throne" I'm moving to a new country. You don't elect a person that says "I just want to know what does the Vice President do, each day"....

Your more knowledgable than I thought for a high schooler after You criticed my comments...

Article I Section 2 Clause 4 US Constitution. - The Vice President of the United States shall be the President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided.

The executive branch can merely enforce the law, executive branch has executive agencies which in certain situations can make law over the subject matter they control...Therefore, the flawed polices of these last years are a fault of both the democratic controled Legistive branch and the exucutive branches implimenting the laws...

Which leads to the curupt media, which
a. The Press is protected by the 1st amendment
b. Are now owned by corporations, (ie. GE owns NBC, which was the last major corporation to stop selling to Iran. Therefore, they have a stake in the minimizing the negative public perception towards Iran.)
c. Influence the American population with 30 second soundbites. This has turned what is an extremly important American election, into a popularity contest polarizing the nation even farther into partisan politics.

Champion, while making a valid point about breaking UN resolution kind of broke his arguement in 2 ways.
First he forgets to mention that by acting unilaterally instead of coming to terms with the UN pretty much killed off it's chance to pull the 'They broke 17 UN resolutions card', by acting the way the US did they ultimately gave the UN the middle finger and went on not giving a shit about what the other nations thought.


Secondly, he brings up Bill :p. Now this is not really something that breaks your arguement but it unfortunately does make me lose some respect. I've watched several of Bill's shows and I'm sorry but I just have to conclude that O' Reiley is a complete asshole. Fox news as a whole is a fucked up biased newssite, I really wonder how this is possible sometimes. The media is supposed to be as unbiased as possible, here in Europe it would be a major disgrace if a mediachannel was this obviously biased.

You're right, he did end up bashing McCain to an extent originally as well, but nowhere near as bad as he has been bashing democrats. In addition to that, now that elections are coming closer, Bill & Fox news as a whole have gotten increasingly supportive of the McCain camp. On top of that, he completely shuts down anyone who tries to criticise them and just starts shouting when he's about to lose a debate. This man is a disgrace to Fox and american media in general.

O'Reilly like likely vote for McCain, since he is a conservative. The American democratic party was become almost a progressive party, while the Republic party has moved towards what the democratic party represents. True Republicans are almost not represented in this election.

AMERICA IS NOT A DEMOCRACY, IT IS A REPUBLIC.  Art. 4 Sec. 2 Cl. 4 US Constitution
    There is a reason for this.

MSNBC on the other hand revoked its two election anchors (Chris Matthews and Kieth Olberman, who one said "He gets tingles down his leg" when Obama gives a speech. I'll let you decide which one it was) because of their clear bias towards Obama, at the demand of NBC's most tenured member.

Fox is not biased like that, and Hillary Clinton said they held the most fair primary election coverage (maybe because they didn't have a horse in the race)

McCain offers mostly the tied and true methods of the Republican party (Low taxes, let the private sector create the growth), with some populus policies (Global Warming, Every kind of energy)

Obama offers a radical approach to the American way. He calls it the "American Promise" That term, by its nature, suggest entitlement. He believes in Goverment solutions to problems, not private.

The Repulic form of goverment, in which our constitution protects, along with are Capitolism structure is design to be smaller.

If you believe in Obama's view than you should vote for him, however people are letting him and the media cloud these radical departures in American domestic policies. in "Change" and "Hope."

The Beauty of Freedom is we can do this... Which can't be said for "Big Bad Russia"

[BoDyBaG2224TLS]

Even if we become the minority it doesn't mean we will have a minority leader. Not to sound racist or anything but the majority of the minorities are exactly the most well educated people. I live in Florida and I see stuff that makes me go wtf. A girl has lived here for 4 years and HARDLY SPEAKS ENGLISH. If I did the study abroad thing and went to Spain for a year nevermind 4 I would probably speak spanish quite well. Mainly because if I don't I more or less go homeless/foodless.

@ champ. I know it is both but how long has the senate been a democratic majority? 2 years iirc. Plus there have been numerous bills that Bush has vetoed or done his magik and gotten passed. I just sometimes stare in amazement as certain leaders look as if everything is ok. I got to find that olympic video with the president....

Also fox not biased? I find that very very hard to believe (off to youtube I go lolz)

Basically the whole "private business" thing has bitten us in the ass big time. The government needs to do some regulations to make sure that things stay balanced (stock market today went down what? 500pts? or something, my father is shitting a brick atm pension is going down the tube).

[Unkn0wn]

If you believe in Obama's view than you should vote for him, however people are letting him and the media cloud these radical departures in American domestic policies. in "Change" and "Hope."

Calling obama's viewpoints radical is hardly true, maybe from a US perspective. For us, Mccain would be right wing, if not extremely right wing. Obama would be center .

Also, everything I've seen so far regarding american elections has just proven that this is hardly the ideal election, it's not really about what they stand for but the keywords they keep repeating (Hope in obama's case, Warhero in McCain's case) and the bashing they do on their opponents  (mccain's case). You have to give Obama credit that he's not partaking in this whole mud-throwing thing as much as McCain, unfortunately it might even cost him the elections. Obama at least tries to present a plan, McCain doesn't even bother. Oh but that doesn't matter, he's a war hero! Well... not really, I'd say he's simply a noble failure. Also, just look at the whole Palin thing, she is hardly the ideal VP pick yet she has been idealised to heaven. Dear god, imagine if she was ever to take part in a World summit, they'd just make fun of the US for sending a hockey mom.

I saw her interviews, it was horrible. She (and members of fox news) for that matter claims that she has 'some experience with international affairs because she lives next to russia.' This has got to be the most idiotic comment ever made by a VP candidate. And I'd say executive experience and experience as chief in command of the alaskan national guard really means very little.

Now to get back on the fox news thing. I'd say the fact that MSNBC revoked two of its journalists for not being unbiased enough clearly proves that MSNBC is in fact very unbiased. Unlike fox, they wouldn't even revoke their reporters. And using the fox coverage of the democratic candidate elections as 'proof' hardly makes any sense. They have nothing to gain by being biased in a democratic election as they ultimately don't care. And ultimately they bashed every single democratic candidate far more than they ever bashed a republican.