Expensive Volks

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[UnLimiTeD5]

Since when is using banned?
There are trusted people *caught* using it on all of them, and since most comanies have less than a half dozen, I don't see a problem there...
Wouldn't fear to use them if neccecary.
To bed I never play Blitz.

Hey, now we finnally got something it's worth discussing over.
I propose linking to the appropriate thread and close this one!

[Mysthalin]

volks more versatile then grens

Explain? Grens get both extreme AI and extreme AT upgrades, volks only get a secondary AT and a mediocre close range AI upgrade.

realism arguments are kinda lame

Yet again, wouldn't have been even brought up if not for one of the "pro-volks-are-good-as-is" people's statements.

most of those people would never STOP using them because of this, because most of those who used grens generally used them before any price changes

Either I need explanation, or that makes little sence.
Yes, people ALWAYS used grens, but volks were also abundant. Now not as much, most notably due to the price increase. Noone was saying grens are used to little.

Are they a TAD bit too high?
maybe yes

Wow, welcome to our world, we were pioneering a 180 cost, not the 170 cost that used to be.

[Prydefalcn]

The fundamental flaw in your argument is that you claim volks are no longer plentiful, but that is simply not the case.  You can disagree with that all you want, but I've played against most of the top vet companies this war so far and I have seen plenty of them.

[meversbergii]

This is a pretty fierce discussion...

I do not understand all the mechanics involved, in particular how hits are calculated, how casualties are considered and how weapon damage factors into things.  A quick question:  Between unit A and unit B, say in this case Volks and Rifles, are the interacting entities the squads, or the individual soldiers?  That is, do my guys shoot at your guys, or does the squad shoot at another squad?

Anyways, I think we need to take a look at the larger picture.  Historically, Volksgrenadiers were first founded in the Autumn of 1944.  Why you see them in the D-Day portion of the vanilla game is beyond me.  These were guys who are vets from other branches, like the luftwaffe, the kriegsmarine, as well as guys rejected for grenadier units, young boys too young to enlist, old men too old to enlist, and regular soldiers who are coming back from the hospitals, etc.  The theory was to get a high volume of soldiers with high volume fire weapons.

In a grenadier squad in 1944, most of your offensive firepower was your issue MG42 or MG34 (Which should also be a unit), and you other riflemen support that MG.  Volksgrenadiers were supposed to compensate for a lack of MG with automatic weapons, and if I'm not mistaken some were even issued the MP44 (The leader model in game always seems to have this weapon too).

Now, they're not as well trained.  They *should* be cheap, because they're made up of conscripts from the bottom of the barrel based around some harder vets.  I guess mechanics wise they would have less "HP" to represent this fault, and worse accuracy, than a given "standard" unit.  They would also be slower, I'd assume.  Weapon options should actually be more than simply "MP40's or Kar98's".  They should also have the option of the G43, a simi-automatic rifle not well represented in CoH for shit.  Now, these units are not THE worst; the Volksturm were even worse off and are actually UNDER the barrel, if Volksgrenadiers are bottom of the barrel.

Another thing not represented in game is morale and motivation.  There were accounts of whole divisions of Volksgrenadiers made up of old grenadier veterans from destroyed units who, exhausted from years of killing, surrendered to the first Allied unit they saw.  They were just sick of it.  You can't really represent that in game, or their variable training, with just a single unit.

Just my 2 pennies.

M.

[Unkn0wn]

That is, do my guys shoot at your guys, or does the squad shoot at another squad?

Soldiers shoot at soldiers, as individual entities.

[Thtb]

Please, stop the realismen arguments already ^^

Good post though meversbergii, historical things are however not part of Balance

Also "You still see volks" is no real argument. You still need (even if only a small) amount of them for various purposes.

[Killer344]

yeah, recrewing and as a human shield for grens :p...

[Falcon333]

How do volks and grens mix together?
I mean seriously, as in a non sarcastic way.

[Thtb-Ally]

Mineclearing, too.

[Killer344]

lol... you put your volks in front of yours lmg grens, so when they rush at you with rifles they´d have to kill the volks first or die trying to kill the grens...

[UnLimiTeD5]

I like putting Grens in front of my Grens.

[Killer344]

It´s smarter to put volks than grens, with mp40s especially.

[UnLimiTeD5]

for the enemy to put them down from the distance?
Whatever, I said I won't get involved, tactics don't belong here.

[Killer344]

Lmg to kill them, mp40s to keep them at bay, that´s all I´ve said.

[UnLimiTeD5]

Lmg to keep them at bay and kill them, for each man lost the lmg gains strenght.
Actually I should start a thread about how overpowered zeal is, especially for a T2.

[Killer344]

Oh.. I didn´t know that lmgs gets buffs without zeal...

[stumpster]

Lmg to keep them at bay and kill them, for each man lost the lmg gains strenght.
Actually I should start a thread about how overpowered zeal is, especially for a T2.

It only really starts getting good once you've got a 2-man squad.  All that it takes then is a lucky Sherman/mortar/whatever shot and you've lost some vet because you tried to take advantage of Zeal.

[UnLimiTeD5]

Im quite capable of giving the high vetted squads grenades and the lowlifes lmgs.
I don't care for vet, it's an advantage, but I won't lose games for it.
Is that the point in this thread?

[stumpster]

Nope, just saying that Zeal has its own downsides.

[UnLimiTeD5]

It hasn't, it's only the behavior that it provokes in some players