T4 Balance Vote Discussion

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[winisez]

me, chubba and nate always get challenged in our opinion every war about allies opness, whatever the origin of it, the fact that every war we come up with a lame gay combination of ass rape that always uses the allies broken t4's should be an indication that something is wrong...we have yet to pull something off as lame with axis.

we all prefer playing axis...and look at this, the discussion goes is circles...and nothing gets done again...shock surprise....

with axis you see most of the t4's used, they are all reasonably balanced with one another, there is one that is obviously not, which is subversion, which was very very heavily used last war i played in, has declined to rear is ugly head this war, which im happy about.
but when i play axis, i see a handful of t4's used on the allied side..and its not due to a lack of options.

air superiority. - cant imagine why with only 7 artillery strikes...and 5 recons.
onboard mechanics- repair bunkers for the allies...not bad on a sherman, esp when its much harder for axis to counter this with much poorer off map, no airborne and no suicidal m10s.
duel rocket racks-honestly dont know why this one is so popular, its alright, but calliope is retardedly under priced anyways, i guess i would use, but i see no balance issue with it. just the calliope in general, for its current cost and popcap.
Tank Reapers- axis Armour superiority- joke? axis infantry? 75munition bars..with cheap rifles with super vet...axis arty rofl? this one company can curtail an axis team.

[UnLimiTeD2]

The example was already given, 3x subversion for example.
Just hope not to play vs. 3 times epic rifle spam . Oh, a lame allied tactic
Axis don't offer many lame tactics compared to allies, but enough strong combos.
A 2 men Zeal DoubleLMG squad, supervised, can kill an entire 25 pop rifleblob in like 3 bursts.

[winisez]

me and n8 already done the mass rifle thing, never got round to a tripple subversion...i dont even think it would be funny like the allies is. meh, i heard eir development was happening again, but i aint seen any positive changes or anything yet. number tuning couldn't be that hard could it? it would go a long way to balancing some of those stupid t4's.
laugh as those 2 man squads get either a) sniper b) pwnt by sherman/croc of doom lolololol c) suppressed by bars d) entirely wiped out along with the officer by the calliope/ strafing run/infantry off map.

and donnie, whats the the torrent of allied love from you? its like you desperatly like using some of the t4's of something 

[PPLA]

I have to agree Tank reapers is a little bit OP but i think reducing by 50% is a little drastic.  It is still A t4 and should be good and the fact it only affect ATG's is sort of a balancer.  maby a 10-15 percent decrease in its affect would be good.

[UnLimiTeD2]

Believe me, if that rifleblob has 2 bar squads in it, they will still die before the grenadiers are pinned.
Also:
You won't waste a calliope barage on a single Gren squad.

E isnt numbertuning, as far as we  are informed it's gonna be a full doctrine rework and adding of the OF factions in the near future.

Somewhat 2.0 without complete recoding..

[winisez]

oh i agree, some of the numbers put forward are indeed off. but the general concepts, what do you think of them?

for example, AS, its 7 arty strikes, axis have tier 3's that give 2 fucking usless or close enough fire storms. or the DEADLY V1....seriously...

so allies are undisputed masters of artillery....thats impossible to stop btw, there is no counter.

axis advantage? Armour and support weapons? both have allied t4's DESIGNED to counter these.... and they have more than 1, tank reapers is the most obvious, but there are so many allied t4's that counter axis strengths.

where as a lot of axis t4s are very unimpressive.

for example conviction, its a good t4, i think it is very effective. however it doesn't possess any of the raw potential for abuse, that the allied t4's posses. which me, n8 and many others have proven time and time again.
another example, heavy support. its good, its effective, its completely countered by several of the allied t4's, made almost redundant. ontop of this crocs destroy this tactic if used properly.

i agree with PPLA, tank reapers should be about 35-45% i think, not the25% that n8 said. but thats just numbers, they are easy to tweak.


on the other hand, we could take the doctrine approcah, If everything is OP then everything is balanced. if we buff the weaker t4's to equal the power of abilities like AS and tank reapers, i would be content. but we need suggestions, and to replace subversion, which is fundamentally broken.

[UnLimiTeD2]

Not at all fundamentally, just replace permanently by 30 minutes delay (or 20-40 depending on game size) and it's a nice balanced T4.

What is heavy support countered by?
The entire tree combined denies even Raid Assault, HS paks can kill TR ATGs for their superior Range, and Intensity in the Same Doctrine will allow dual HMGs to supress fired up troops (and kill them).

Keep in mind Air Superiority takes a total of 52 cps, Rocket Arty also grants you Stukas and stronger Nebels before. And 88s.

Axis got stronger units, allies got stronger artillery.
Axis got overall better doctrines, Allies got better T4s.

And there will likely not happen anything as we don't know how doctrines will look in the near future.
Hopefully it's not the
'2 trees with 7 tiers' system...

[Snarks]

Hm, don't feel like debating on any of the other people's decision atm so I'll just post what I see that is out of whack.

1) Tank Reapers - Change it to something else or spread the buffs
2) Cohesion - Essentially pointless, I've never had trouble fighting Cohesion players
3) Heavy Support - Health buff puts it over the top; this T4 should improve on the support weapons but not weaken/remove soft counters to them such as Grenades or small arms fire (Ie. Rifle squad in green cover vs MG42)
4) Subversion - Very lame ability; the whole concept of sabotage is stupid
5) NGV - It just doesn't live up to a T4 status.
6) Air Superiority is fine, but it's the fact that you essentially have a T1, T2, T3, and T4 stacked together.
That's all I can think of atm.

[winisez]

What is heavy support countered by?
The entire tree combined denies even Raid Assault, HS paks can kill TR ATGs for their superior Range, and Intensity in the Same Doctrine will allow dual HMGs to supress fired up troops (and kill them).

ive been running a HS compnay with intensity, ive never ever seen it surpress anything that has fire up on it, crocs destroy it when used with scouting/recon. howies end this t4 compeltly, as does dropping airborne with satchels. anyone that can flank with rifles can do alright against this t4. the health buffs? mgs still go down to nades half the time, and still get roasted by crocs. calliopes...just quit if you have gone HS...you have no chance.

[Snarks]

I've ran a HS company for three wars though I didn't play much on one. MG42 can and will suppress Fire-Up troops, ask Pengu for the math. It has been done several times and the 50% health buff means it's very difficult to dislodge a MG nest and combine that with the vet 1 health regen, the MG42 can recuperate rather quickly. Ask any veteran player and they'll tell you that it's generally accepted upon that it takes two Grenades to dislodge HS HMGs.

Crocs < Double Pak + Mines or the Triple Pak variation.

Howies are actually the least effective arty against HS. Calliopes and Aerial Offmaps are way more dangerious to it. With the Howitzers, you just need to learn to relocate everytime it's near barrage time.

Satchels take 5 seconds to detonate; there is no excuse on why you can't dodge that unless your opponent is distracting you else where to draw your attention away. Then it's your opponent being smart and using tactics if that were to happen.

Mortar "Barrage" ability is not effected by the HS range increase, however, the regular attack/attack ground abilities do have their range increased.

Removing the health buff and it'll be a fine T4. I could see adding a little bit of something else to help compensate for the health buff lost, maybe something along the lines of more sight range or something.

[winisez]

double pak or tripple pak combo? thats so unviable on so many levels....just pray the croc comes the way you want? thats a great plan...dodge satchels, yea your right it can be done. ive seen the best players of eir get hit by them though...and you can only bring so many support weapons.
arguing one of the least used t4's need nerfing is stupid.

[Snarks]

Yes, it's so unviable that the top HS player only had a 95%+ win rate. Also, you have THREE Pak Guns, why are they all facing the wrong way? If that's happening, then you obviously need to reevaluate your tactical knowhow.

Double Pak is also the MOST versatile starting group. Watch a few of the better replays and you'll notice that many Axis players choose to start with double Paks. Since Paks take up 4 pop, they actually take less pop than double schreck squads. A few actually go with Triple Paks if they've worked things out with their teammate. How is it unviable if it's the most versatile AT formation?

Also, HS was probably the MOST popular T4 in the past several wars. In fact, it was probably the most common T4 during TLS. About one out of four players I played duing TLS were HS. 25% is definitely not least used.

[winisez]

who was this player? and snarks...ive played plenty of games thanks...maybe i need to go back to my old account, i dont seem to be getting recognized very well. if you start with 2 pak guns, im gonna laugh when hey get strafed, callied or off mapped, or the croc just runs past with field repairs....i did take i hiatus during the tls, but for the 4 wars before that i never saw more than 5 HS players, in all those wars together.  btw, is snarks = minehold?

[Leaph]

I didn't play during TLS, but I followed the events of it. Heavy support was incredibly rampant during that campaign and for a short while following. It was popularized by Pengu at the time (that is the player he was referring to), who fought many 2v2's with Chaos (Tenacious Faith) back then.

The 2 T4's worked very well together and Made for a very effective infantry spam backed up by super support weapon spam.

[stumpster]

Snarks is ThetaCommander, and he's spot-on.  Heavy Support was used quite a bit during TLS and afterwards, it's a great T4.

[Akranadas]

The problem with the doctrine system itself is that there are abilities that counter other abilities.

[Tymathee]

wini, you're obviously not backing your units up if you keep having these things happen to you but at the same time, you have to expect certain things to happen, it's rare that your pak will live for more than 5-10 minutes because the allied players usually want to take it out so they can move their armor in, thats' when you bring out your armor, double schrecks, pak guns, etc.

as for HS. I've played many a game where i've had an mg in a building and it totally kills it, or a rocket from a stuka or nebel hits the eroof and takes out the whole house or everyone in it. You'll never have that happen with a howitzer just because of the way it lands. HS is a very powerful T4 and probably just as powerful as tank reapers since the HS tree affects snipers as well. If you've got an HS company play with a omniscience company, it's just rape.

and who was it that said that omniscience is like scouting? no it's not, scouting only affect jeeps, omni affects all units, so you dont have to have bikes, all units get more sight, which means, your tank can see my tank before i see yours. Or your infantry can see my infantry, your pak can snipe my tank, etc. that one stug's length of sight is a huge advantage, especially if you're playing defense.

[winisez]

-if you say so, clearly we have had differing experiences. though ive played my fair share of games too btw.

you can never assume perfect conditions, such as playing with an omni player. realistically speaking its generally the worst case scenario that arises.

and im not arguing that HS is up or anything, but i would say its probably in the medium or sweet spot for t4 balance. its what the other t4's should be balanced too imo.

[Tymathee]

but you cant balance all T4's really because some people are better with certain t4's than other people. Like me, i'm wicked with T4 arty but someone else might not know how to use it right. Some people are really good with TR cuz they can micro their at guns good, while someone else who can't micro at guns would do poorly. I think it's nearly impossible to balance all t4's personally. You'd have to rework the doctrine s ystem.

Hell, even in vcoh, all the top doctrine abilities aren't evened out, some are more useful than others.

[winisez]

you have a good point with tank reapers, but its a level of skill that the majority of the community poses. the ability to click, for strafe and infantry offmap is almost none.
subversion...well...yea