Paks sniping at guns

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[aloha625]

This is a problem in retail CoH as well. Maybe this mod and its balance team could show a strong hand by nerfing accuracy between at guns. You shouldnt need to blob up elite infantry or other silly stuff just to take out camoed paks. In fact, its considered a genuine balance issue over at Gamereplays.org (where I come from) and from my experience in the community at large.

"Paks sniping at guns is bs"

Basically sums it up. Its hard for balanced american builds to advance upon defending germans when their at guns gets sniped by paks with no chance of retribution. Some targets (like the king tiger) is just not viable to take on with tanks only. You need those at guns. If the paks just sniped the crew now and then, it wouldnt be so bad as you could be smart and recrew with supporting riflemanz. But alas, the gun itself is destroyed.

A couple of different fixes are proposed:

- Long range accuracy of the Pak is nerfed against the 57 MM
- Both 57 MM and Pak has vastly decreased accuracy against each other at long range (most realistic I think)
- At guns snipe crews now, not the gun themselves (perhaps the best idea and a previous way this was handled)
- Accuracy between at guns are nerfed to neglible levels (0,05 - 0,10) at all accuracy ranges.

ok but ATguns shouldnt be ble to snipe infantry!!! caus THIS is BS
axis inf (grens and KCH) only has 3/4 men per squad. if one guy is killed by a ATG, that really sucks

[Scaevola]

You can't just conjure situations to defeat every argument, because for every argument there's a counter argument (to Scaevola).

There are numerous counters to the PAK. The advantage of the ATG is the AP shells and higher damage, the Pak gets cloaking, each is relevant for certain reasons. Deal with it.

Pak -->Counters speed
ATG -->Counters heavier armour

I've got a fair solution.  How about allied sniper decloaks after 3 shots? I mean, he's necessary to counter superior axis support teams. Oh, that would make the sniper practically invincible? Whats the problem, you can follow the smoke!

[MannfredvonRitter]

You can't just conjure situations to defeat every argument, because for every argument there's a counter argument (to Scaevola).

There are numerous counters to the PAK. The advantage of the ATG is the AP shells and higher damage, the Pak gets cloaking, each is relevant for certain reasons. Deal with it.

Pak -->Counters speed
ATG -->Counters heavier armour

I've got a fair solution.  How about allied sniper decloaks after 3 shots? I mean, he's necessary to counter superior axis support teams. Oh, that would make the sniper practically invincible? Whats the problem, you can follow the smoke!

That isn't logical or coherant. Sniping is completely different to AT guns. Each has its strength, ATG's have higher penetration, a lot higher. Pak guns have cloaking. Each one necessary for its own reasons. Axis: Heavier Tanks. Allies: Fast tanks. Pak guns cost more, they should win.

Try not putting ATG's in your front line, but rather 20 behind your troops, this is what axis players do with pak's usually. Allies should stop putting ATG's frontline and then complaining that they die.

If you can only counter axis support teams with a sniper you aren't being cost effective or even transcending someone who's just started playing CoH. You have a wealth of options for doing so. In fact the allied sniper is woeful at killing support teams, too slow. Use arty/tanks etc.

[Skaevola2]

You can't just conjure situations to defeat every argument, because for every argument there's a counter argument (to Scaevola).

There are numerous counters to the PAK. The advantage of the ATG is the AP shells and higher damage, the Pak gets cloaking, each is relevant for certain reasons. Deal with it.

Pak -->Counters speed
ATG -->Counters heavier armour

I've got a fair solution.  How about allied sniper decloaks after 3 shots? I mean, he's necessary to counter superior axis support teams. Oh, that would make the sniper practically invincible? Whats the problem, you can follow the smoke!

That isn't logical or coherant. Sniping is completely different to AT guns. Each has its strength, ATG's have higher penetration, a lot higher. Pak guns have cloaking. Each one necessary for its own reasons. Axis: Heavier Tanks. Allies: Fast tanks. Pak guns cost more, they should win.

Well obviously its coherent if you can read it. The main purpose of snipers is to kill support teams due to their small squad sizes, and sniper's ability to cloak. The pak gun functions even better than a sniper at killing allied at guns BECAUSE IT CAN FIRE AND STAY CLOAKED! I know that sounds absurd when I say a sniper should stay cloaked when it fires BUT THATS WHAT PAK GUNS DO!

[MannfredvonRitter]

l2p

My ATG guns rarely get sniped when I play as Allies. You're doing it wrong.

[Skaevola2]

l2p

My ATG guns rarely get sniped when I play as Allies. You're doing it wrong.

Is that seriously all you can say? Seriously l2p against my not decloaking sniper! Its not OP or anything its meant to do that! Plus snipers have to pay for it in their cost! Anyone who argues against me is a noob and doesn't know how to play! Either an ATG can shoot at a tank, and is thus in the line of fire in a pak or its sitting behind a building wasting pop and resources.

[MannfredvonRitter]

Yep.

You clearly don't know how to, you cite situations which a player of modest skill overcomes.
You either want an easy win, or you suck horribly.

BTW If you bothered to check, most tanks have a 40 range, ATG's have 60. Your line of sight is quite short, so if you put it behind your own troops, you can shoot a tank whenever it can shoot your troops and your ATG is no longer vulnerable to the Pak, or vulnerability is substantially reduced. Have you even bothered to read the rest of this thread?

[Skaevola]

Yep.

You clearly don't know how to, you cite situations which a player of modest skill overcomes.
You either want an easy win, or you suck horribly.

I would say the same thing about you, because pak sniping is completely broken. Why would you even defend it?

[MannfredvonRitter]

Yep.

You clearly don't know how to, you cite situations which a player of modest skill overcomes.
You either want an easy win, or you suck horribly.

I would say the same thing about you, because pak sniping is completely broken. Why would you even defend it?

Only way to break defences considering axis rarely have artillery capable of stopping such weaponry. I think it's a necessary game mechanic that easy weapon can be countered.

[Skaevola]

Yep.

You clearly don't know how to, you cite situations which a player of modest skill overcomes.
You either want an easy win, or you suck horribly.

I would say the same thing about you, because pak sniping is completely broken. Why would you even defend it?

Only way to break defences considering axis rarely have artillery capable of stopping such weaponry.

That makes no sense. Bring artillery? Not to mention axis has better infantry, and can just run over AT guns with KCH even WITH a machine gun supporting it. Or a sniper?

So first you say only noobs get sniped by ATGs, yet then you say its necessary for axis to have? Does axis only beat noobs? Contradiction much?

[MannfredvonRitter]

Yep.

You clearly don't know how to, you cite situations which a player of modest skill overcomes.
You either want an easy win, or you suck horribly.

I would say the same thing about you, because pak sniping is completely broken. Why would you even defend it?

Only way to break defences considering axis rarely have artillery capable of stopping such weaponry.

That makes no sense. Bring artillery? Not to mention axis has better infantry, and can just run over AT guns with KCH even WITH a machine gun supporting it. Or a sniper?

So first you say only noobs get sniped by ATGs, yet then you say its necessary for axis to have? Does axis only beat noobs? Contradiction much?

lolk

[notenome]

moar drama!

[FingerTrapped2]

I dont see how sniping at guns is a skilled move, in fact its dead easy. If the pak has vet 2 or is otherwise buffed it used 3 shots to take out an at gun. If you think its "skilled" to snipe with at guns you are a moron imo. No offence.

[Draken]

If the paks could not cloak in open field but in cover only it would be more balanced (and more realistic).

[EscforrealityTLS]

That is how other mods do it, and people generally hate it haha.

[Draken]

That is how other mods do it, and people generally hate it haha.

I don't use paks so I dont care, but it could be compromise between first strike and insta cloak (if u are "pro" pak user your pak will never uncloak).

[EscforrealityTLS]

I should have noted I'm pro realism, but it has to be balanced. I'd actually accept your point though if it came with a price reduction for the PAK.

[Skaevola]

I think the best solution is definitely to make pak guns decloak after they shoot. That's how every other cloaked unit in the game works, and would stop pak sniping, without unnecessarily nerfing their cloaking abilities. I think its fair, other opinions?

[Unkn0wn]

EIR has a tradition not to touch vCOH stats, and right they are imo.
Relic's new balance patch will also fix this anyway.

[MannfredvonRitter]

I dont see how sniping at guns is a skilled move, in fact its dead easy. If the pak has vet 2 or is otherwise buffed it used 3 shots to take out an at gun. If you think its "skilled" to snipe with at guns you are a moron imo. No offence.

It isn't skilled to sniped AT guns. It is skill to avoid being sniped however. But sniping an MG isn't skilled either, but sometimes it's the only way to break a defence.