Paks sniping at guns

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[MysthalinBlitz]

He based it on the fact the pak can easily be destroyed by both enemy ATGs and enemy arty.
When I ran my Dual Rocket Racks calli company, nearly every second barage would hit a pak(and usually kill it or decrew it). It's not that hard. It's called listening into the FOW, also scouting along before the fire.
Heck, if you're airborne just use a strafe on the pak - decrew or destruction guaranteed!

[GamerAndy]

the same can be said for nebels and stukas which easily decrew/destroy AT guns, and the nebel is nondoctrinal

but thats all beside the point - If I recall the point of this thread is questioning the balance to having Paks able to consistently kill enemy AT guns because the Pak remains cloaked until the battle is almost certainly won, often without the enemy AT gun (which is in range) firing a single shot.

[Wildfire]

all this pretty stuff on how to kill paks doesn't matter in the fact that you can get pak sniped and it'll take you a couple seconds to move the thing and more likely than not they'll get 2 hits and maybe a 3rd as ur moving away cuz it's ONE HUNDRED PERCENT ACCURACY vs other anti tank weapons, that's just stupid, ther's a slight penalty if u move it, but if it fires before u move, it'll just curve and hit it anyway.

schecks 2 shot at guns, tigers and kt's rape at guns, volks with mp40's take it out in no time, then there's storms and if they have a scheck can easily 2 shot it or take it out with mp44's. Even stukas and nebels do well vs at guns cuz of the fire left on the ground that'll slowly kill ur at gun if u dont move it fast enough and even  if u do, more than likely you'll move into more fire, so u have ot sit there and hope to god that they dont die.

and again i reiterate, pak sniping is a problem and a huge annoyance and I think that cloaked paks get an accuracy buff, no seriously. Why did i lose 2 jeeps yesterday to pak shots? 2 paks hit it and took it out on their first shot, this is while the jeep was moving.

ok onto stats...

in vcoh

AT Gun cost 280
Pak Cost 310

even then, 67 seconds to producde at gun, 43 for pak.

first strike modifier of Pak.

    * Penetration * 10
    * Damage * 1.25

so basically, it'll penetrate every time with its first shot. and damage goes up to 143.75 which isn't more than the at gun at 150 but you still have the higher penetration chance.

there's also a second longer reload time on the at gun, 3.5 vs 2.4, longer winddown 1.5 vs 1.0, hell pak guns even get AOE suppression,  at .001, .01 and .1

Pak vs Towed Gun
Towed Gun   1   1   1   3   1   1   25

AT Gun vs Towed Gun
Towed Gun   0.5   1   1   3   1   1   25

heh, makes no sense. 100% acc vs moving pak?

anywho...
http://coh-stats.com/Weapon:57mm_AT_Gun
http://coh-stats.com/Weapon:50mm_Pak_38

there's the stats.

[Wildfire]

the same can be said for nebels and stukas which easily decrew/destroy AT guns, and the nebel is nondoctrinal

but thats all beside the point - If I recall the point of this thread is questioning the balance to having Paks able to consistently kill enemy AT guns because the Pak remains cloaked until the battle is almost certainly won, often without the enemy AT gun (which is in range) firing a single shot.

agreed. 115 per shot on pak, at gun 300 health, 3 shots before uncloak, you do the math

[Smokaz]

You can't expect to counter one thing with its counterpart and win.

I read the rest of your post too, but this stood out. Re-think the pak situation if you feel like this. The pak is not supposed to counter the 57 because it can cloak, and its the cloak that makes it able too.

With the repair speeds in EiR, it spells doom in a later engament where the gun itself is targeted for the 57 MM to take two "free shots" from a cloaked pak.

[MistenTHA]

57mms seem to have a 5% bonus too. While 3 shots can kill a 57mm, more often than not it will take another 1-2 shots to kill due to the 5% bonus, hence they will often survive.

Having an engineer around to repair the 57mm will help in such cases.

Tank Reaper ATGs usually win the shootout after the pak decloaks, though they may lose if they miss too many shots at long range.

Pak sniping is a strong axis advantage, which I see as being balanced out by Allies have superior artillery options.

[Wildfire]

57's take 2-3 shots, more likely 4-5 because of the 50% accuracy. do a 1v1 and do a pak vs at gun test, without cloak and see who wins. Also, put into it the fact that a cloaked paks first shot does 1.25 more damage, so it's 143, 115 and 115 vs a 300 health at gun. they both ahve 300 so yeah, 2 at gun shots WILL kill it but more than likely, it'll fire more than that cuz of the 50% accuarcy.

and even if the at gun has tr, it will still take more than one shot.

and while the allied artillery is stronger, axis artillery has shorter cool down. stukas nebels firestorms, rocket barrages and even the v1 can fire again before allied artillery will be able to fire again.

[Malevolence]

In my opinion pak sniping is fine. At worst make the accuracy slightly but not much worse. They usually miss the third (required to kill) shot anyway, then the UBER 70% DAMAGE BUFF + AP ROUNDS ALLIED AT GUN COUNTERSNIPES AND ONESHOTS THEM.

If you complain about paks and not about tank reapers, you are one biased allied player. Both are problems, both could use fixing, I'm fine if both remain the same as they mostly balance each other out. One results in a mobile AT gun that puts out the same damage as a flak 88 for a third the cost (25% more if you have AP rounds on it), one results in a less powerful mobile AT gun that can counter the former AT gun, but not tanks quite as well as the former can.

[Smokaz]

Well IMO as I stated in the OP it would be equally fair if both the pak and the 57 mm targeted each others crew instead of the actual weapon or if both weapons had poor accuracy against each other.

[Draken]

The most stupid idea in this thread is that atgs should target the crew... U think it's easier to aim crew behind atg then atg? lol...

IMO paks are fine, I personally don't use them they are just not cost effective imo and to static.

[notenome]

To be completely honest to nerf the pak and not the ridiculously op tank reapers is laughable. Pak sniping is at best an anoyance, and as for 100 % acc thats pretty fail as I've seen paks miss a lot of snipe shots. It is by no means an imba OP ability.

Furthermore, to claim that paks shouldnt be able to snipe AT guns cause the allies dont have the same ability, well then how come my HMGs dont have armor piercing rounds? How come my grens cant throw stickies? Or if you wanna talk about in a vacuum bubble scenarios, how com my LMGs dont have insta LMG suppression that BAR squads get? You cant argue that something should be nerfed just because the other side doesnt have a similar ability, especially when it is feasible to kill a pak with a 57.

And its hard to say that anything is imba that gets done what? Twice, thrice a game? Has anyone really ever played a game that was decided by pak sniping? Not to mention that, theoretically speaking, when two units of the same type meet, the one with the higher cost should win the battle.

[Killer344]

The most stupid idea in this thread is that atgs should target the crew... U think it's easier to aim crew behind atg then atg? lol...

IMO paks are fine, I personally don't use them they are just not cost effective imo and to static.

you need to meet my m8/m10 spam company and you will see why you need paks since schrecks fail at longe range lol..

[Thtb]

Mind you that m8´s die to the first shot of a cloaked paked, like 90% of the time.

[Smokaz]

Draken, it is just as stupid to completely ignore the point by allowing at guns to take out crew members and not the gun itself and just puke up some kind of retarded realism rant. The point was that the gun stays alive and can be recrewed this way, not that its imaginably "easier" for the at gun to shoot the crew. You might as well put the words in my mouth that I wanted the at guns to headshot the other at gun crew while finnish black metal plays in the background. The intention of stopping at guns from shooting and destroying each other had nothing to do with realism.

One of the big issues with the american-wehr matchup in retail is the pak sniping. It artificially increases the power of wehr lategame by making at guns hard to bring to bear against a guy combining t4 tanks and t2 paks.

In every of the 10-11 games I have played of EiR, paks have attempted to snipe my 57 MMs. The two first shots are all but unavoiable, how are you going to be on the lookout for a cloaked unit attacking from long range? Its not like you can put a jeep in front of the 57 MM. Guess what will happen to the jeep. :O

Also, I see people posting that the 57 MM can easily kill the pak. Not if the pak doesnt choose to open fire first, and continue shooting after 2 shots. There's a huge difference there. It means that the pak will always spot the at gun first and that it will get off at least 2 free shots. From what I've learned, the tank reaper ability makes the 57 mm deal more damage to the pak and other targets - but only if the pak chooses to fight with it, so this point is redudant unless the pak is uncloaked.

The shrek deals with at guns extremely well. Can anyone really argue that axis is starved for options to deal with at guns if the pak didnt lolwtfpwn it like it does now?

I wouldnt bother to make input to this mod if I didnt think it was awesome, and I'll not pretend to know it even remotely as good as some of you old timers. But just judging from this thread alone, it seems that some people at least agree with my humble observation.

[Scaevola]

To be completely honest to nerf the pak and not the ridiculously op tank reapers is laughable. Pak sniping is at best an anoyance, and as for 100 % acc thats pretty fail as I've seen paks miss a lot of snipe shots. It is by no means an imba OP ability.

Furthermore, to claim that paks shouldnt be able to snipe AT guns cause the allies dont have the same ability, well then how come my HMGs dont have armor piercing rounds? How come my grens cant throw stickies? Or if you wanna talk about in a vacuum bubble scenarios, how com my LMGs dont have insta LMG suppression that BAR squads get? You cant argue that something should be nerfed just because the other side doesnt have a similar ability, especially when it is feasible to kill a pak with a 57.

And its hard to say that anything is imba that gets done what? Twice, thrice a game? Has anyone really ever played a game that was decided by pak sniping? Not to mention that, theoretically speaking, when two units of the same type meet, the one with the higher cost should win the battle.

lol play allies

The fact that axis can kill my only decent AT weapon (I play armor) without myself being able to counter it in anyway (It's cloaked!) is absurd. Of the games I have lost the majority have involved me running out of AT weapons, usually because they all got destroyed by Paks. I think Smokaz's solution is optimal because it allows one to recrew the gun instead of it being completely destroyed, but I think OMG's solution (so pak decloaks after one shot) is certainly fair.


Snipers should snipe AT guns, not AT guns!

[Malevolence]

Paks are also a buttload more expensive, if I remember right, they do need to be more versatile - that cloaking power is expensive, it might as well be useful, so please don't suggest trying to balance this via nerfing the cloak if you have exception against the current situation. The cloak itself is fine.

That being said, I s'pose paks should do 50% less damage against AT guns, and 57mms do the same amount less in turn, that'd alleviate the problem plenty well. Pak can cloak and use that to its advantage, but it doesn't automatically win because it takes so many more shots to kill it.

[Scaevola]

Well in OMG iirc paks have also gotten a significant price decrease, but they still gain the pak first strike bonus, and the ability to mostly hide from arty, which imo is very powerful. I really wish my AT guns had a hold fire, I hate it when they fire at infantry at long range, giving away their position.

[Bodybag2224-Armor]

Relic addressed this issue, by making ATG vs ATG accuracy worse, and making tanks target the ATG crew, and made panzershreks less accurate against ATGs. Those 3 changes would be great to see in EiR.

[Wildfire]

To be completely honest to nerf the pak and not the ridiculously op tank reapers is laughable. Pak sniping is at best an anoyance, and as for 100 % acc thats pretty fail as I've seen paks miss a lot of snipe shots. It is by no means an imba OP ability.

Paks will only miss when an at gun is in green cover or there's green cover in between the pak and the at gun. If its in open field, and going 1v1 and no one's moving, then it will NEVER miss and the at gun will lose every time.

Furthermore, to claim that paks shouldnt be able to snipe AT guns cause the allies dont have the same ability, well then how come my HMGs dont have armor piercing rounds? How come my grens cant throw stickies? Or if you wanna talk about in a vacuum bubble scenarios, how com my LMGs dont have insta LMG suppression that BAR squads get? You cant argue that something should be nerfed just because the other side doesnt have a similar ability, especially when it is feasible to kill a pak with a 57.

Hmgs dont have armor piercing rounds cuz they suppress a lot better than allied hmgs and you still have to buy the ap round upgrade. Plus, the allies only have one light vehicle, the m8, where it would be useful and how many people do you see use those? Where as you have more of a chance teo see Puma spam than m8 spam. Grens have schecks and i'd fucking much rather have schecks than stickies so fuck off on that. BAR's dont insta suppress but they do suppress and terror can use them like axis hmg's cuz with intensity, they suppress just that well.

And its hard to say that anything is imba that gets done what? Twice, thrice a game? Has anyone really ever played a game that was decided by pak sniping? Not to mention that, theoretically speaking, when two units of the same type meet, the one with the higher cost should win the battle.

I've played plenty of games where pak sniping has decided a game. Think about it, if i have one at gun left and they've got tanks, and i have no other anti tank, then if I get pak sniped, and my at gun DIES instead of getting decrewed and if in that game, i was pak sniped every time (as has happened in some games) and i lose every at gun instead of it getting decrewed, then yes that decides the game, especially if th ey want to bring in a Tiger or Panther and roam it around the field like an infantry vacuum. Also, think about this comparison. If I lose an at gun by decrewing, i dont get my AP rounds back on it if I never used it but paks if picked up by an axis player can recloak it, so the one advantage that at guns might have over paks is gone and if an axis player picks up an at gun, it gets the same use out of it an allied playre gets but if an allied player picks up a pak, it becomes a weaker at gun with no bonuses, even if that player has tank reapers.

and the only reason axis players bitch about TR is because thats the one ability that totally screws ur armor and causes you not to use it reckless way that axis players usually do and have to actually micro ur damn tanks just like allied players have to.

also, the reason allied players with pershings are so good with them is cuz they spent so long microing m10's and shermans cuz they constantly lose head to head matches vs axis tanks so when they get a heavy tank, they're much more practiced in micro. So please stop the BS axis players and some of you that are whining about allied OP abilities are actually good players so you really need to quit whining.

[DasNoob]

also, the reason allied players with pershings are so good with them is cuz they spent so long microing m10's and shermans cuz they constantly lose head to head matches vs axis tanks so when they get a heavy tank, they're much more practiced in micro. So please stop the BS axis players and some of you that are whining about allied OP abilities are actually good players so you really need to quit whining.

 

Take the bias/passion out of your arguments and they will be better read.

I have yet to see a player successfully micro an m10