Treadbreaker

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[overfreeze222]

imho this WHOLE issue will be fixed when the full doctrine list is put in, that is assuming u have field repairs ond OBM (or something similar)


if u were to say, have OBM on a tread broken tank it wood quite quickly (for EiR standards) be repaired.

and yes, i am aware that OBM nd field repairs wood be doctrinal to armor only, but hey, beggers cant be choosers

[scrapking]

ATHT isn't OP, it's so fragile and dies so easily.

Like I've said before, a sherman and atg combo will usually kill an ATHT.

IT's damage is too low, if you make it engine damage, at least bring up the damage to 100 or so, so it isn't complete and utter fail.

That isn't a horrible idea either, although the DEVs have historically shied away from making changes to unit stats, but I'm sure there is some precedent.

I don't want the ATHT to not be useful, but in a persistent game where people value their vetted armor units, the full treadbreaker ability is OP for this mod.  It would mean any player with a vetted Firefly, or Pershing ... or even highly vetted Sherman (they exist!), would have avoided games against PE players.  

But to have it do more damage, up to say comparable to a PAK, might be a fair trade off.  And honestly, its not as though nearly automatic engine damage when the target is at full health, and a good chance of immobilization at yellow health, isn't useful.  I admit the MU cost for the treadbreaker ability should have been lowered when the effect was nerfed.

[donnieDark]

ATHT in the hands of a good player is harder to kill than a jeep.   The range on that treadbreaker is crazy and the thing is speedy as hell. 

[MannfredvonRitter]

ATHT in the hands of a good player is harder to kill than a jeep.   The range on that treadbreaker is crazy and the thing is speedy as hell. 

It has a 45 range, if the ally backs up his tank with an ATG (60 range) then it will die before it gets close enough to fire the treadbreaker, it only works horribly well against un supported tanks. Sadly tank rushing and noob storming seem to be more and more common in allied armies and as a result, they cry because their unsupported armour has no backup. Repairs are quite quick, taking less than 1/3 the time of a sticky repair. It isn't OP, it is just as counter able and in fact probably easier to counter than stickies, because at least you know who has it. The fact it's now 3pop instead of 5 speaks volumes of how much it currently fails. The chance of death is quite high, firefly has 55 range compared to 45 as well, so a firefly can kite it and kill it before it closes quite easily also.

I just don't see why the complaints that it's op, there are many ways to counter it, far more than against suicidal sticky bombers.

[Smithy17]

In what way is it easier to counter than a sticky bomb? - if you are blaming allies for letting an unsuppresable fast vehicle from getting within 45 of a tank and calling them noobs who cannot use combined arms, then the mighty axis players who have the secret of such tactics surely can stop a suppressable infantry squad from getting within 17  of theirs.

[MannfredvonRitter]

Your firefly as british outranges it by 10, it dies in 2-3 shots.

Your ATG outranges it by 15 and is immune to its attack.

A HMG with AP rounds will kill it ridiculously fast.

Even a rifle screen in front of a tank with a sticky bomb will counter it, Riflemen BAR will kill it rather fast also, it's damn easy to counter with combined arms. PE have no suppression as well, I think you haven't played as PE before . Tanks that are in friendly territory with support are easy to repair quickly.

Stickies can be thrown over hedges and buildings, which is hugely helpful, you don't know who has them, so random riflemen can sticky your light vehicles and almost destroy them in one throw and you can never charge with a tank for fear of a sticky.

Stickies cost 85 mu +200
ATHT for treadbreaker costs 275 + 50fu +95mu and if there is any support can often die to fire its one TB.

Stickies take more than 3x as long to repair the damage of, ATHT does a measly 30-odd damage, compared to 100-150. It's highly ineffective, it's so easy to retreat and repair a tank with only engine damage of a shitty 30 damage. Your sticky is effective regardless of my vehicles health, my ATHT is only effective if your health is less than 50%.

[Baine]

In what way is it easier to counter than a sticky bomb? - if you are blaming allies for letting an unsuppresable fast vehicle from getting within 45 of a tank and calling them noobs who cannot use combined arms, then the mighty axis players who have the secret of such tactics surely can stop a suppressable infantry squad from getting within 17  of theirs.

The problem is, PEs will mostly only have one of that ATHTs. While Allies have 12 rifles. Now tell me, what is more scarier, one ATHT that may even have the treadbreaker( 90% it will have), or 12 rifles whereas you never know if they have stickies or not, thus making axis tanks more afraid of moving.

It's not that PE only have 1 ATHT and Allies only 1 riflesquad. If that was the case then we wouldn't have had this discussion.

[MannfredvonRitter]

All allies who think Treadbreaker is fine now, try using it and see how effective it is lol.

[EscforrealityTLS]

To Baine:

I'd  say the ATHT considering the it almost certainly has treadbreaker  I mean what the hell is there to be afraid about with rifles?

[MannfredvonRitter]

To Baine:

I'd  say the ATHT considering the it almost certainly has treadbreaker  I mean what the hell is there to be afraid about with rifles?

His point was uncertaintly, you never know if a rifleman has stickies, as a result you have to avoid ALL riflemen, which forces you to use tanks conservatively. Shermans rush Marders/Pak38's, whilst Wehr/PE have to defeat them in other ways for fear of a sticky bomb damaging their engine in enemy territory.

ATHT was OP because allied players wouldn't adapt and adjust their tactics, if they fought the same way the Axis players do, they wouldn't have a problem, but they're used to being able to charge tanks into infantry without major repercussions. I would much rather the ability to buy stickies, than the ability to have an ATHT .

Allied tanks are also generally faster and can more easily escape from enemy territory to safety to be repaired than axis tanks.

You will have noticed as axis and ally, the distinct lack of ATHT's in game from previously.

Give them back their TB ability.
Decrease availability to 1-2.
Increase cooldown.
Restore pop to 5.

That will more than balance them, if they have to lose a PP after TB-ing a tank, they will think twice before using it.

[Smithy17]

@MannfredvonRitter
Your MG42 as whermacht outranges the sticky squad by 18 and can definatly suppress them

Whatever tank they are trying to sticky outranges them by at least 10 and can move back faster than they can keep up

Any infantry support that happens to be around (and we all know that you axis players are the bees knees at combined arms) kills a rifle squad charging past.

A sticky squad does not have unlimited uses and cannot be repaired.

The problem is, PEs will mostly only have one of that ATHTs. While Allies have 12 rifles. Now tell me, what is more scarier, one ATHT that may even have the treadbreaker( 90% it will have), or 12 rifles whereas you never know if they have stickies or not, thus making axis tanks more afraid of moving.

There are only going to be about 4 rifle squads at most on the field at anyone time - just kite them, they cannot keep up with you, unlike the at halftrack.

[MannfredvonRitter]

@MannfredvonRitter
Your MG42 as whermacht outranges the sticky squad by 18 and can definatly suppress them

Whatever tank they are trying to sticky outranges them by at least 10 and can move back faster than they can keep up

Any infantry support that happens to be around (and we all know that you axis players are the bees knees at combined arms) kills a rifle squad charging past.

A sticky squad does not have unlimited uses and cannot be repaired.

The problem is, PEs will mostly only have one of that ATHTs. While Allies have 12 rifles. Now tell me, what is more scarier, one ATHT that may even have the treadbreaker( 90% it will have), or 12 rifles whereas you never know if they have stickies or not, thus making axis tanks more afraid of moving.

There are only going to be about 4 rifle squads at most on the field at anyone time - just kite them, they cannot keep up with you, unlike the at halftrack.

Play as PE and use the ATHT, then tell me its still useful, it isn't. There are far better ways to spend 135mu, 50fu and 275mp. (another mortar HT anyone?). It is useless now, all i'm saying atm, is increase damage to 100 or so, so that it isn't so easily repaired, drive away with allied speed of happiness, repair in 30s! Victory!

[MannfredvonRitter]

Battles on average last about 35minutes, an ATHT causes the loss of 1.4% of the total battle to the unit effected. Compared to 4.2% of the battle for a sticky. Not to mention a sticky is cheaper with a quicker cooldown. Sticky spam can easily kill armoured cars, HT's, ATHT's, Marders etc etc etc.

[Smithy17]

I never claimed it was useful for its price - I have no idea about that and can't play at the moment so I am keeping out of anything like that.
I just don't see how anyone can say that it is easier to get off a sticky than an treadbreaker round.

[Baine]

Just give it the original treadbreaker back and limit it to 1 ATHT. More for PP.

[scrapking]

In a persistent mod, you cannot have a unit which auto-immobilizes vehicles.  An immobilized vehicle is a dead vehicle.  Unless it somehow happens well inside friendly territory, it will die a thousand deaths.  The vehicles that an AT-HT player most wants to target are going to be the most powerful ones, probably with the most vet.  Players like those vehicles, its somewhat why they play.

It would be like having an MMORPG character in a persistent hardcore world with permanent death, and ONE class in ONE faction has the ability to immobilize other players permanently, until another character (who is also easy to kill), stands next to them for 2 minutes doing nothing but healing them.


Or maybe you all would prefer if stickybombs also immobilized vehicles?  You can't have one side with the ability to impose a 1 shot death sentence on the other factions' heavy tanks.  Either neither have it, or both have it.

I don't believe AT-HT are useless now, I seriously think its a bunch of people crying because they essentially lost the ability to vet-grief other players.  It might be too costly in terms of MU, but the actual effect of engine damage is still very useful.

And you are smoking crack and in total denial if you think applying a sticky-bomb is easier than hitting something with an AT-HT.



It is the persistent nature of this mod alone which makes the full treadbreaker ability broken.  It wouldn't be an issue if people weren't trying to develop their units and Battalions.  It doesn't break the individual games, it breaks the mod.

[Baine]

In a persistent mod, you cannot have a unit which auto-immobilizes vehicles.  An immobilized vehicle is a dead vehicle.  Unless it somehow happens well inside friendly territory, it will die a thousand deaths.  The vehicles that an AT-HT player most wants to target are going to be the most powerful ones, probably with the most vet.  Players like those vehicles, its somewhat why they play.

It would be like having an MMORPG character in a persistent hardcore world with permanent death, and ONE class in ONE faction has the ability to immobilize other players permanently, until another character (who is also easy to kill), stands next to them for 2 minutes doing nothing but healing them.


Or maybe you all would prefer if stickybombs also immobilized vehicles?  You can't have one side with the ability to impose a 1 shot death sentence on the other factions' heavy tanks.  Either neither have it, or both have it.

I don't believe AT-HT are useless now, I seriously think its a bunch of people crying because they essentially lost the ability to vet-grief other players.  It might be too costly in terms of MU, but the actual effect of engine damage is still very useful.

And you are smoking crack and in total denial if you think applying a sticky-bomb is easier than hitting something with an AT-HT.



It is the persistent nature of this mod alone which makes the full treadbreaker ability broken.  It wouldn't be an issue if people weren't trying to develop their units and Battalions.  It doesn't break the individual games, it breaks the mod.

Ok, i see the problem here, but at least give it a 5% chance to immobilize(green health), 20%(yellow health) and 50%(red health) then.

[scrapking]

In a persistent mod, you cannot have a unit which auto-immobilizes vehicles.  An immobilized vehicle is a dead vehicle.  Unless it somehow happens well inside friendly territory, it will die a thousand deaths.  The vehicles that an AT-HT player most wants to target are going to be the most powerful ones, probably with the most vet.  Players like those vehicles, its somewhat why they play.

It would be like having an MMORPG character in a persistent hardcore world with permanent death, and ONE class in ONE faction has the ability to immobilize other players permanently, until another character (who is also easy to kill), stands next to them for 2 minutes doing nothing but healing them.


Or maybe you all would prefer if stickybombs also immobilized vehicles?  You can't have one side with the ability to impose a 1 shot death sentence on the other factions' heavy tanks.  Either neither have it, or both have it.

I don't believe AT-HT are useless now, I seriously think its a bunch of people crying because they essentially lost the ability to vet-grief other players.  It might be too costly in terms of MU, but the actual effect of engine damage is still very useful.

And you are smoking crack and in total denial if you think applying a sticky-bomb is easier than hitting something with an AT-HT.



It is the persistent nature of this mod alone which makes the full treadbreaker ability broken.  It wouldn't be an issue if people weren't trying to develop their units and Battalions.  It doesn't break the individual games, it breaks the mod.

Ok, i see the problem here, but at least give it a 5% chance to immobilize(green health), 20%(yellow health) and 50%(red health) then.

OK, give that to stickybombs then.

Or fuck it, lets just make that a chance on any given hit from any AT weapon at all.  And why not throw in arty?  While we are at it, lets assume a bullet from a SMG could like rupture a fuel line or something and cripple a tank, so small arms too.  You could randomly throw a tread running over a wall...  maybe your crew didn't change the oil every 5000 miles and the engine seized up....




People get fucking bitter and angry and argue and do some shady shit when their precious vet dies.  You simply cannot have one side with an ability that is well designed for vet-griefing, and not the other.  It will hurt the mod.  It will deter people from wanting to play against PE. It will deter people from wanting to play Allied - and that is in itself perhaps the single largest problem this mod actually has.

Personally I prefer if neither have it.  And for the record, my faction of choice is Axis.  I play alot of Allied games to 1) actually be able to play because so many people simply refuse to play Allied at all  - and I wonder why that might be?  2) to get a wider and more accurate view of balance.

[CafeMilani]

5% is 1 of 20 shots -> tooo low

make it 20% (green health), 40% yellow and 60 red

[scrapking]

5% is 1 of 20 shots -> tooo low

make it 20% (green health), 40% yellow and 60 red

Again, OK, same for stickybombs then.

How ya like that now?