My initial balance thought with EIR:R

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[scrapking]

In no particular order.

Treadbreaker ability on the AT halftracks is too short.  Up to doubling its recharge would probably be ok.

British emplacements are too difficult to use effectively because of the long setup time.  The emplacement itself does not warrant enough defensive advantage to warrant to long packing / unpacking time.  Either shorten the packing / unpacking time to be closer to that of a standard AT gun / mortar, or increase the defensive emplacement advantage significantly.

The availability on various infantry is askew.  Americans either need more rifleman, or a buffed unit.  Tommies need close to same.  Or, Wehrmacht needs to not have 10 volks & 10 grens, and PE needs to not have 10 pzgrens, 4 assault grens & 8 AT grens.  The elite infantry types are all good at 4 each, although considering AB infantry as elite might be bad.  More than 4 AB infantry is probably necessary to induce the flavor of the doctrine.

In accordance with the above, PE probably have too much AT available because of up to 8 AT grens being available.  The Marder / AT HT numbers don't seem to be a problem though.

British probably need to have 25 pounders available to RCA at start, possibly even all Bristish doctrines, similar to Stuka - 0 in reserve, 1 in supply.  Something like that.  They have no real answer for indirect fire without arty.  Removing stuka & nebel availability at start might help if adding arty availibility is not desireable.

Armor & vehicles all seem relatively well balanced. 

Remember that VCoH unit stats are based on the VCoH gametype.  Rifleman are designed for spamming, Tommies are designed for fighting in trenches, and to a lesser extent, spamming as well.  It seems to be more important to confine quality infantry units with availability, and either loosen up on basic infantry to all be more in line with one another, or consider buffing their unit stats & possible upgrades.

That's all I can really think of now, I realize that quite a bit changes when unlocks are made available, but these things I mention have more to do with using existing units, or discrepancies in the consistency of similar unit type's availability.

[EDIT]

Another thing, and I know this has come up in original EIR several times, is that American Shermans should perhaps not may extra munitions for the 76mm upgun, but instead pay more fuel (and perhaps MP). 

The reasoning is that the upgun, unlike an MG upgrade, is more "tank".  i.e., as is, you could get 4 (or up to 6 with PP cost) shermans, and upgun them all, but lose significantly from support weapons & infantry upgrades.  Take a 76mm upgun is sort of like taking a better tank altogether, which the precedent for is paying more fuel (and perhaps MP).

Taking this option should hurt your overall armor, not you infantry & support.

[RE-EDIT]

Then again, I'm forgetting that infantry & Airborne have MU to spend on ranger & AB upgrades.  Leaving it at costing MU lets the armor player field a better armored cadre.  I don't know, maybe it belongs the way it is.

[nated0g]

My opinions are fairly in line with Scrap's. Alot of the things he says does seem to be spoken in many of the EIR game chats. My list comprises of some of the things already spoken but also some additional points listed as follows, some of which I have refered to OMG as things they have done and worth considering implementing. I know OMG is pretty taboo at the moment. But a good idea is a good idea.

1) Too few infantry units for Allies. With respect to Axis with 10 Volks and 10 Grens (and KCH) it outnumbers allies with their 10 Basic Rifles (and maybe 4 Elites) Especially with British I'm currently fielding Sappers as fighting troops cause I don't have enough Tommies

2) PE AT 1/2track. Read PE AT halftrack post about low cooldown.

3)Too many Axis AT units all round. Abundance of Shreks makes gameplay very difficult to break. In conjuction with PE AT halftrack (and lack of artillery to disperse Shrek blobs) causes gameplay balance considerations.

4)Fallschrimjagers should be able to be air-dropable (REF. OMG)

5) British AT Guns needs to be movable (REF. OMG). IE. movable just like a US AT gun.

6)The Timer for R+ mode for the 3rd player is very long. there's just alot of sitting around.

7) Tommies Recon squad needs to be removed and have the option to be upgrade as Recon(or removed entirely). This really seems unnecessary to have. (See point 9)

MGs on the maps need to be removed. This is just a silly idea.

9) Tommies need to have speed penalty removed. (REF OMG) This brings them in line with the map size changes from VCoH to EIR scaled maps. Having officers everywhere is just impractical and frankly unrealistic for a British player to achieve.

Alternativly, (Again REF OMG), make Tommy penalty removable via upgrade that is purchasable.

I know its alot of point, mainly regarding buffing Allies ( OH NOES! SAY THE AXIS PLAYERS). And I'm sure the axis players will claim something that says "but allies get X, so ", but its beta. Im not expecting a perfert system.

[DjTerror]

Alies were in need of buff from old EIR.
I hope they get strenghned here in  EIRR

[Sach]

9) Tommies need to have speed penalty removed. (REF OMG) This brings them in line with the map size changes from VCoH to EIR scaled maps. Having officers everywhere is just impractical and frankly unrealistic for a British player to achieve.

 

There is no speed penalty on tommies.

my biggest concern with British is how they are meant to fight off a tank rush as they are deploying without bringing a firefly in their first call in.

piat squad ain't gonna stop 2 p4s.

[Draken]

Nated0g u played EiR:R? U can drop falschmijaegers, u can move emplacements, and brits don't have move penalty.

The bigest problem IMO is the allied main infantry avability, wehr player have 20 infantry compared to 10 rifles from start, that's just silly tbh

[scrapking]

My opinions are fairly in line with Scrap's. Alot of the things he says does seem to be spoken in many of the EIR game chats. My list comprises of some of the things already spoken but also some additional points listed as follows, some of which I have refered to OMG as things they have done and worth considering implementing. I know OMG is pretty taboo at the moment. But a good idea is a good idea.

1) Too few infantry units for Allies. With respect to Axis with 10 Volks and 10 Grens (and KCH) it outnumbers allies with their 10 Basic Rifles (and maybe 4 Elites) Especially with British I'm currently fielding Sappers as fighting troops cause I don't have enough Tommies

2) PE AT 1/2track. Read PE AT halftrack post about low cooldown.

3)Too many Axis AT units all round. Abundance of Shreks makes gameplay very difficult to break. In conjuction with PE AT halftrack (and lack of artillery to disperse Shrek blobs) causes gameplay balance considerations.

4)Fallschrimjagers should be able to be air-dropable (REF. OMG)

5) British AT Guns needs to be movable (REF. OMG). IE. movable just like a US AT gun.

6)The Timer for R+ mode for the 3rd player is very long. there's just alot of sitting around.

7) Tommies Recon squad needs to be removed and have the option to be upgrade as Recon(or removed entirely). This really seems unnecessary to have. (See point 9)

MGs on the maps need to be removed. This is just a silly idea.

9) Tommies need to have speed penalty removed. (REF OMG) This brings them in line with the map size changes from VCoH to EIR scaled maps. Having officers everywhere is just impractical and frankly unrealistic for a British player to achieve.

Alternativly, (Again REF OMG), make Tommy penalty removable via upgrade that is purchasable.

I know its alot of point, mainly regarding buffing Allies ( OH NOES! SAY THE AXIS PLAYERS). And I'm sure the axis players will claim something that says "but allies get X, so ", but its beta. Im not expecting a perfert system.

1) Its actually 10 grens.  And yeah, agreed.

2) Fully agreed

3) It feels that way, although mostly because of AT Grens, I think.  Relatively speaking, other AT units are generally in line with their Allied counterparts.

4) They can already.

5)  They can already, but it might be buggy.

6)  I disagree, the time is pretty much spot on.  I love the gametype.  The current duration adds the the sense of urgency, and the feeling of relief when everyone is on.

7)  Limiting Tommy Recon squads is a good idea, in and of itself.  Its only in combination with the low (by comparison to German Infantry) availability of basic infantry that one might feel pigeon holed into buying them, even if you prefer to have more rifle grenades, or bren guns.  So its not really an issue of the limit on recon squads, its the lack of basic Tommy squads.  Or, the abundance of German infantry as a whole.  

Yes, that's ridiculous, but that is a mistake in map making, not EIR:R devs.  However, maps with crewable weapons on map should never be placed into the mappack in the first place, imo.  Or destroyable neutral vehicles.

9)  Tommy speed penalty is already removed.  You do not need officers for that.  

[nated0g]

u can move emplacements, and brits don't have move penalty.


No, I dont think you quite get me. I dont want an emplacement. I want to have a 17 pdr come on the field. And I want it to move.

[Schreder]

Spamming tommies isnt what this mod should be about.
They cost 450 in vcoh for a reason you know.

And yeah, Natedog have you played yet :p

On top of that treadbreaker is kinda imba for what it does. Giving it a higher cool down, isnt really going to fix the matter rather than limmit it more.
You would have a unit as fragile as the halftrack is on the field to use like only once or twice ?

Fighting tanks with piats and without using button up isnt really something we can discuss about.
I saw people calling two squads of piat sappers like theyre some kinda of uber at and chasing after p4s..

[DiBBs]

sounds like you would be a fan of OMG. Herd of it?!(lulz)

brit emplacements would be too easy if they didn't have the bunker around them.
And I know, I play PE.

If emplacements are used right, they can be a relentless wall of impenetrable defense.
If not used correctly, they can easily be broken through.

Regardless of whether they are used correctly, it seems to me that the first 10 minutes of the game is always a stalemate trench warfare sort of thing. Once you take their first line of trenches though they can only rely on their emplacements to hold you back.

Makes for some amazing gameplay in my opinion. Keep it the way it is.

[nated0g]

The emplacement ranges were designed for regualr COH gameplay with the appropriate population. In small pop big map games having a fixed emplacement strategy in a war of mobility such as MCP is a bit like having your cake and eating it.

[Absolution]

A 17 pounder weighs three metric tons, you aren't pushing it anywhere.

And further, having such an INCREDIBLY powerful AT gun be mobile like a 57 or a PaK would necessitate enormous cost increases because it would easily dominate anti-tank warfare.

The Germans don't get 88s and 75s to push around, why should the British push around their 76mm AT gun again? That's so out of line with the medium AT guns and crews that it's ludicrous to even begin thinking about letting them run around the map pushing the gun manually.

[DiBBs]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_17_pounder

3 METRIC TONNES.

/end discussion? lol

[Unkn0wn]

Realism doesn't really matter for balance/gameplay arguements.

[Groundfire]

gameplay > realism

Get enough men togather and you can push anything.

[DiBBs]

point in case, a moblie 17 pounder is like a moblie 88.

[scrapking]

I'm not necessarily for pushing around British emplacements, but if they are going to keep the longer setup time and be *less* mobile, they need to be more resilient.  They do not seem to gain any extra defensive bonus that a standard AT gun behind a wall of sandbags would not also enjoy.

If they are not going to be more resilient, than they should instead be more mobile.  The nature of the British design would seem to favor being more resilient however.  

And nobody here brought up piats, or buttoning units.  Piats are fine, buttoning is fine, but British AT emplacements need a little love in some form.

And personally, I agree, the mod shouldn't be about spamming Tommies.  But neither should it be about spamming volks & grens, or AT grens.  Ironically, the germans currently have both generally better infantry, and more infantry; with better upgrades.  Wehrmacht gets 24 total, PE gets 22 total, PE LW gets 26 total, US infantry & AB gets 14, armor gets 10.  British get 12, unless you are CMDO, then you get 16.

Should be either have better & less, worse & more, or the same & the same, roughly speaking.  This is especially important considering our MCP victory system.

[Absolution]

90% of my post was explaining the infeasability of having such a contraption be "pushable" like the other AT guns in terms of game balance.

Read everything I write before you comment, please.

Also it was 3 long tons, not metric. Sorry.

I'm not necessarily for pushing around British emplacements, but if they are going to keep the longer setup time and be *less* mobile, they need to be more resilient.  They do not seem to gain any extra defensive bonus that a standard AT gun behind a wall of sandbags would not also enjoy.

If they are not going to be more resilient, than they should instead be more mobile.  The nature of the British design would seem to favor being more resilient however. 

And nobody here brought up piats, or buttoning units.  Piats are fine, buttoning is fine, but British AT emplacements need a little love in some form.

I agree that they are rather easily decrewed at the moment, but I still think that they should be decrewable. Maybe give them better "cover" than they have now, such that the emplacement would be destroyed before the crew with exception of "special" weapons like fire mortars, et c.

And personally, I agree, the mod shouldn't be about spamming Tommies.  But neither should it be about spamming volks & grens, or AT grens.  Ironically, the germans currently have both generally better infantry, and more infantry; with better upgrades.  Wehrmacht gets 24 total, PE gets 22 total, PE LW gets 26 total, US infantry & AB gets 14, armor gets 10.  British get 12, unless you are CMDO, then you get 16.

I'm not saying anything here besides too many Brit armies end up spamming sappers as supplemental infantry forces, and that tommies are beyond a shadow of a doubt the best standard infantry in the game. Make of that what you will...

[scrapking]

Absolution, I think we are more in agreement than I had realized.

[EliteGrens]

The problem with making the treadbreaker cooldown higher is that the AT HT is basically a piece of crap that isn't made to do anything else aside from that.
You only buy it because of treadbreaker in the first place.

[Falcon333]

The problem with making the treadbreaker cooldown higher is that the AT HT is basically a piece of crap.
You only buy it because of treadbreaker in the first place.

Stuarts and bren's?
I can't speak from experience but it just seems logical that it would be able to counter these pesky vehicles.