More thoughts on balance

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[scrapking]

I DO generally feel that the factions are fairly well balanced now, but that said, at least where Wehrmacht and U.S. are concerned

MG42 > .30 cal

81mm mortar  > 60mm mortar

Nebelwerfer > ?no equivalent?

Howitzer ~ Stuka ... different units, tough to compare, Howie hits harder, but is static... mobility is strong for Stuka.  Should get off more shots than a howie in most games

unupgraded volks ~ unupgraded rifle squad (AND Wehr can field 8 Volks, 8 Grens & 4 KCH to U.S. fielding 12 Rifles and either 4 Rangers or 4 AB, or... just 12 Rifles)

pak > 57mm ATG

PIV > 75mm Sherman

Panther > 76mm Sherman

M10 > Stug  but M10 is made of paper to a shrek, and those units fill different roles.

Only 1 U.S. Doctrine can field a Pershing, 2 Wehr doctrines can field a Tiger variant

U.S has the edge in a few areas, like sniper, the BAR and sticky upgrades offer something that can be incredibly useful, can generally field more armored vehicles overall, Rangers offer a powerful unit, AB offers a flexible unit with superb AT potential, the U.S. flame vehicle is a tank, instead of a halftrack.  Theres probably something I am not thinking of.

I do pretty well as U.S.  I've had plenty of U.S. players do pretty well against my Wehr Battalion.  In the greater scheme of things, I think that they are pretty close to balanced, except under 2 clearly defined circumstances:

1)  At the beginning of any "war" / wipe / reset, when U.S. is still unlocking units, and Wehrmacht can roll out Panthers, Nebels, KCH, to name a few, with no equals coming out of the U.S. yet.

2)  In reinforcement game types where they face off against each other, 25 pop of Wehrmacht is generally going to be better than 25 pop of U.S.  This can absolutely be altered by unit choices, and how they counter - but if choices are equal in selections - Wehr will have better of everything.


Now, its tough to say "increase this, or decrease that" because I'm entirely leaving out Brit & PE, and I'm not even sure where to begin comparing those, since there are no truly equivalent units.  And probably #2 above applies adversely to PE when facing a U.S. player. 

And I’m not sure how to balance it with costs, or popcap, or availability to solve #2, without breaking the rest of the game.  My own answer is to solve it with playstyle.  As a U.S. player in reinforcements mode, if you go first against a Wehrmacht player, you are probably better off avoiding him, or at least not trying to grab a juicy bulding that he can get to before you are properly set up.  But I don’t see any glaring imbalances with pricing, or availability, or popcap, in general.

One thing I would do is make some units an additional unlock that currently are not.  Panthers, KCH, Nebels, for example.  Stukas too, for that matter - in addition to their current "in supply" availability costs.  Wehrmacht players are working on their Tigers, King Tigers while U.S. is saving points to match some units that Wehrmacht already has available.  It probably wouldn’t hurt to even make Grenadiers an unlock, to be honest.

Something else, which needs to be mentioned, strongly, is how many infantry PE are capable of fielding if desired.  12 PE Grens, 4 Assault Grens, 8 AT Grens (all come as 3 man squads, but can be upgraded to 4 man squads) – and if Luftwaffe, add an extra 4 FJ, and 10 more Luftwaffe infantry.  So, 24x4 man squads by default, plus 14x5 man squads if Luftwaffe.  166 potential infantrymen.  And that is before choosing a 30pp reinforcement doctrine.   This needs to be addressed, or it will be abused amongst an environment which tries to negate infantry spamming in nearly every other area. 

I don’t necessarily think non-Luftwaffe PE has too many, just specifically that example.  Perhaps the Luftwaffe Infantry unlock should essentially replace PE Grens?  Is it possible to give Luftwaffe Infantry the G43 upgrade as an option,  so they can actually fully replace the PE Gren in all roles?  You could theoretically then have Luftwaffe Infantry also replace the Assault Grens & AT Grens as well – if you could alter their upgrades.  Plus that way, PE would be given something good in return for losing default PE Grens.


[EDIT]  Yeah, I tried to build a Battalion around maxing out PE infantry... and its simply not feasible.  You run out of both MP & MU before buying every infantry type at its max availability - and that is without any other unit at all in your Battalion - as well as most of your infantry without any upgrades at all.  So, false alarm - I should have checked that first.

[Schwert]

Uhm. Why do you compare a Panther to a sherman, even upgunned?. Its like comparing rangers with volks. Even if the upgun cost is very high, Panther still requires more MP and probably way more Fuel and Popcap.

Aswell as Stuka and howitzers. They cant be compared. You could compare Priest and Stuka but its obvious who'd win there. And as you said Stuka requires 2PP for Wehrmacht players unless its Defense Doc. Brits have 25pounders for any doctrine.

Why should Grenadiers, which is the main axis infantryforce, be an unlock. Volks aren't capable of anything but recrewing weaponteams and absorbing damage. KCH dont need to be unlocked because they suck anyway. A single shermanshell or sniping BritAT gun is enough to scare them off. Nebels are hardly ever used. At least in the games I played. Bad accuracy, bad killing capacity. Of course if you bring time you can get some kills but...really cant be compared to Allied artimasses like calliope, priest (with the damn creeping barrage) and all that other stuff.

[scrapking]

Uhm, because its the best option that Americans have by default, as Panther is the best option Wehrmacht has by default.  Its not a pricing comparison, it stresses who can bring what without unlocks.

Uhm, ok?   

[MannfredvonRitter]

If you want to compare, compare the Sherman to a P4, no one is going to start with a panther in R mode.

ATG's do more damage, Pak38's cloak. They have different functions in an army so it's hard to compare. I mean, Ranger SMG's slaughter anything that's unlucky enough to be in the open, worse than KCH can kill things. Shermans rape infantry better than a P4. Stukkas supress infantry, howitzers anihilate things in the vicinity of the blast. They all have their own benefits/disadvantages.

[Schwert]

You cant say its not a pricing comparsion. If you want to compare stuff you have to compare all aspects of it, or its just pointless. So it IS a pricing comparsion as well as a armor and penetration and firepower and whatever comparsion.

[MistenTHA]

I DO generally feel that the factions are fairly well balanced now, but that said, at least where Wehrmacht and U.S. are concerned

MG42 > .30 cal

81mm mortar  > 60mm mortar

Nebelwerfer > ?no equivalent?

Howitzer ~ Stuka ... different units, tough to compare, Howie hits harder, but is static... mobility is strong for Stuka.  Should get off more shots than a howie in most games

unupgraded volks ~ unupgraded rifle squad (AND Wehr can field 8 Volks, 8 Grens & 4 KCH to U.S. fielding 12 Rifles and either 4 Rangers or 4 AB, or... just 12 Rifles)

pak > 57mm ATG

PIV > 75mm Sherman

Panther > 76mm Sherman

M10 > Stug  but M10 is made of paper to a shrek, and those units fill different roles.

Only 1 U.S. Doctrine can field a Pershing, 2 Wehr doctrines can field a Tiger variant

U.S has the edge in a few areas, like sniper, the BAR and sticky upgrades offer something that can be incredibly useful, can generally field more armored vehicles overall, Rangers offer a powerful unit, AB offers a flexible unit with superb AT potential, the U.S. flame vehicle is a tank, instead of a halftrack.  Theres probably something I am not thinking of.

I do pretty well as U.S.  I've had plenty of U.S. players do pretty well against my Wehr Battalion.  In the greater scheme of things, I think that they are pretty close to balanced, except under 2 clearly defined circumstances:

1)  At the beginning of any "war" / wipe / reset, when U.S. is still unlocking units, and Wehrmacht can roll out Panthers, Nebels, KCH, to name a few, with no equals coming out of the U.S. yet.

2)  In reinforcement game types where they face off against each other, 25 pop of Wehrmacht is generally going to be better than 25 pop of U.S.  This can absolutely be altered by unit choices, and how they counter - but if choices are equal in selections - Wehr will have better of everything.


Now, its tough to say "increase this, or decrease that" because I'm entirely leaving out Brit & PE, and I'm not even sure where to begin comparing those, since there are no truly equivalent units.  And probably #2 above applies adversely to PE when facing a U.S. player. 

And I’m not sure how to balance it with costs, or popcap, or availability to solve #2, without breaking the rest of the game.  My own answer is to solve it with playstyle.  As a U.S. player in reinforcements mode, if you go first against a Wehrmacht player, you are probably better off avoiding him, or at least not trying to grab a juicy bulding that he can get to before you are properly set up.  But I don’t see any glaring imbalances with pricing, or availability, or popcap, in general.

One thing I would do is make some units an additional unlock that currently are not.  Panthers, KCH, Nebels, for example.  Stukas too, for that matter - in addition to their current "in supply" availability costs.  Wehrmacht players are working on their Tigers, King Tigers while U.S. is saving points to match some units that Wehrmacht already has available.  It probably wouldn’t hurt to even make Grenadiers an unlock, to be honest.

Something else, which needs to be mentioned, strongly, is how many infantry PE are capable of fielding if desired.  12 PE Grens, 4 Assault Grens, 8 AT Grens (all come as 3 man squads, but can be upgraded to 4 man squads) – and if Luftwaffe, add an extra 4 FJ, and 10 more Luftwaffe infantry.  So, 24x4 man squads by default, plus 14x5 man squads if Luftwaffe.  166 potential infantrymen.  And that is before choosing a 30pp reinforcement doctrine.   This needs to be addressed, or it will be abused amongst an environment which tries to negate infantry spamming in nearly every other area. 

I don’t necessarily think non-Luftwaffe PE has too many, just specifically that example.  Perhaps the Luftwaffe Infantry unlock should essentially replace PE Grens?  Is it possible to give Luftwaffe Infantry the G43 upgrade as an option,  so they can actually fully replace the PE Gren in all roles?  You could theoretically then have Luftwaffe Infantry also replace the Assault Grens & AT Grens as well – if you could alter their upgrades.  Plus that way, PE would be given something good in return for losing default PE Grens.


[EDIT]  Yeah, I tried to build a Battalion around maxing out PE infantry... and its simply not feasible.  You run out of both MP & MU before buying every infantry type at its max availability - and that is without any other unit at all in your Battalion - as well as most of your infantry without any upgrades at all.  So, false alarm - I should have checked that first.

Great analysis scrapking. I've pretty much come to the same conclusions myself after finally managing to get a few games in. Axis will have the advantage in the first few days of a full war - or, the existing unit unlock non-doctrinal system.

The old EiR had the allies competitive through doctrinal abilities; without doctrinal boosts the allies are are quite outclassed in several aspects.

[scrapking]

Yes, I can say its not a pricing comparison.  Its more of an availability comparison.  Specifically for 2 points in the game, at the start of a new "war", when nobody has unlocks, and comparing Americans vs. Wehrmacht in "R+" game mode.

Pricing affects how much of something you have in your company.  Availability and unlocks determine when you can get them, and what you can bring out in your first 25 pop call in.

[EscforrealityTLS]

Personally I think that the Panther and KCH being a doctrine unlock available to all axis doctrines is not a bad idea. Or perhaps maybe even lowering the availability of KCH?

[BigDick]

I DO generally feel that the factions are fairly well balanced now, but that said, at least where Wehrmacht and U.S. are concerned

MG42 > .30 cal

.30 cal kills faster

Howitzer ~ Stuka ... different units, tough to compare, Howie hits harder, but is static... mobility is strong for Stuka.  Should get off more shots than a howie in most games

howie has muuuuchhh more range and does much more damage
stukka is sometimes ok but in most cases its crap

unupgraded volks ~ unupgraded rifle squad (AND Wehr can field 8 Volks, 8 Grens & 4 KCH to U.S. fielding 12 Rifles and either 4 Rangers or 4 AB, or... just 12 Rifles)

that they can don't mean that they really can...

i've in my wehr company 6 grenadiers 2 kch and 1 volks
no ressources for more because i use a wide variate of units

Panther > 76mm Sherman

it is like comparing a pershing to a stug

M10 > Stug  but M10 is made of paper to a shrek, and those units fill different roles.

oh i see... different roles

Only 1 U.S. Doctrine can field a Pershing, 2 Wehr doctrines can field a Tiger variant

oh noes it is a tiger lets sticky int and at gun crawl it to death
and you have to calculate brits units too into matchup because one supported firefly can take out all axis tanks (except maybe the jagdpanther.... because its fast)

U.S has the edge in a few areas, like sniper, the BAR and sticky upgrades offer
 something that can be incredibly useful, can generally field more armored vehicles overall,

u said it BAR that is why you dont can just compare the Riflemen with Volks
there is a reason why BAR upgrade counters Wehr T2 Grens

Something else, which needs to be mentioned, strongly, is how many infantry PE are capable of fielding if desired.  12 PE Grens, 4 Assault Grens, 8 AT Grens (all come as 3 man squads, but can be upgraded to 4 man squads) – and if Luftwaffe, add an extra 4 FJ, and 10 more Luftwaffe infantry.  So, 24x4 man squads by default, plus 14x5 man squads if Luftwaffe.  166 potential infantrymen.  And that is before choosing a 30pp reinforcement doctrine.   This needs to be addressed, or it will be abused amongst an environment which tries to negate infantry spamming in nearly every other area. 

i barely saw massive infantryspam from PE in eir:R
and most of their infantry sucks
and you forgot that vanilla 3 men pzgrens are some kind of engies
so as us you can field 8 engies and 12 rifles (i cant get so much infantry anyway because i use more then just riflemen in my company)

I don’t necessarily think non-Luftwaffe PE has too many, just specifically that example. [/s] Perhaps the Luftwaffe Infantry unlock should essentially replace PE Grens? Is it possible to give Luftwaffe Infantry the G43 upgrade as an option,  so they can actually fully replace the PE Gren in all roles?  You could theoretically then have Luftwaffe Infantry also replace the Assault Grens & AT Grens as well – if you could alter their upgrades.  Plus that way, PE would be given something good in return for losing default PE Grens.

luftwaffe inf is no combat infantry they have low HP and no soldier armor
they are more worse then volks and more expensive

but a luftwaffe player wants his luftwaffe infantry to have the advanced repair for his fragile vehicles
since PE has no so many hardcounter AT options they need to have at least 4-6 singleshrek squads

when they have used their fuel into vehicles and 4 fallschirmjäger they can have not more then 6 luftwaffe infantry and no normal panzergrens
my luftwaffe company has 1 normal panzergren 5 single shreks 2 assault grens and 5 luftwaffe infantry

[Sach]

You know i sometimes wonder why you don't play allies BigDick, in your head they are clearly MASSIVELY superior to axis. Do yourself a favour and play easy mode for a bit. Then when you are ready to be the poor UP axis go back to them again.

I switched off as soon as you countered mg 42> 30 cal.

No one, given the choice, would use a 30 cal over an mg 42.

[BigDick]

You know i sometimes wonder why you don't play allies BigDick, in your head they are clearly MASSIVELY superior to axis. Do yourself a favour and play easy mode for a bit. Then when you are ready to be the poor UP axis go back to them again.

I switched off as soon as you countered mg 42> 30 cal.

No one, given the choice, would use a 30 cal over an mg 42.

and i wonder why you don't take a private lesson in reading?

[Smithy17]

.30 cal kills faster

No it doesn't (well not to significant degree anyway )

howie has muuuuchhh more range and does much more damage

That's what he said - except you didn't mention the stuka's mobility. If the first couple of shells are not on target its not too hard to dodge a howie barrage

Panther > 76mm Sherman

it is like comparing a pershing to a stug

No its not, he is comparing each sides heaviest non-doctrinal tank, as opposed to the weakest of one side and the strongest of the other.

[MannfredvonRitter]

.30 cal kills faster

No it doesn't (well not to significant degree anyway )

howie has muuuuchhh more range and does much more damage

That's what he said - except you didn't mention the stuka's mobility. If the first couple of shells are not on target its not too hard to dodge a howie barrage

Panther > 76mm Sherman

it is like comparing a pershing to a stug

No its not, he is comparing each sides heaviest non-doctrinal tank, as opposed to the weakest of one side and the strongest of the other.

Mr Fanboy

A panther costs 590fuel, 700ish manpower. It's drastically more expensive than a sherman, in fact to recover its fuel costs it needs to kill at least two shermans, AND it can ONLY kill tanks, it fails at killing infantry.

[scrapking]

Bigdick... fitting name.

HMGs are there for suppression, not killing.

Howitzer has more range, but cannot move.  Movement is huge, for defense, and hitting other targets on larger maps.

You are fairly correct about the number of grens & volks that can be practically fielded, but the point is that they have the option, Americans don't.

Its not like comparing a Pershing to a Stug, the Pershing isn't AVAILABLE without unlocks, all those other vehicles are.  EVERY Wehrmacht Battalion can have a Panther.  ONE American Battalion can have a Pershing.  The BEST tank that EVERY American Battalion can have is a 76mm Sherman.  The BEST tank that EVERY Wehrmacht Battalion can have is a Panther.

Again, its about options.  Two Axis doctrines can field a Tiger type tank, one can field a Tiger Ace AND King Tiger.  Americans get ONE doctrine which can field a tank arguably inferior to all of the above.

I didn't compare infantry upgrades, but if you want to go that route, I'm going to say that gren upgrades for LMG & shrek are at least as good as BAR & sticky... one is better at killing, the other better at pinning & engine damage.  I didn't bring them up because they are comparable in desirability.

You quoted a section I already crossed out because I tested the practicality of it, and found I was wrong.  Hence why it was, you know, crossed out, with an [EDIT] beneath explaining myself.



You should probably make an effort to understand what I am trying to communicate before creating such an argument against points I .... was.... not.....making.

Get your panties unbunched, I'm not crying for nerfs to your beloved Axis prices, or stats.  I am commenting on the balance between the two factions in 1) Early War and 2) R+ Mode


Its almost as important an aspect of balance as prices, popcap values, and unit stats.

[MannfredvonRitter]

Bigdick... fitting name.

HMGs are there for suppression, not killing.

Howitzer has more range, but cannot move.  Movement is huge, for defense, and hitting other targets on larger maps.

You are fairly correct about the number of grens & volks that can be practically fielded, but the point is that they have the option, Americans don't.

Its not like comparing a Pershing to a Stug, the Pershing isn't AVAILABLE without unlocks, all those other vehicles are.  EVERY Wehrmacht Battalion can have a Panther.  ONE American Battalion can have a Pershing.  The BEST tank that EVERY American Battalion can have is a 76mm Sherman.  The BEST tank that EVERY Wehrmacht Battalion can have is a Panther.

Again, its about options.  Two Axis doctrines can field a Tiger type tank, one can field a Tiger Ace AND King Tiger.  Americans get ONE doctrine which can field a tank arguably inferior to all of the above.

I didn't compare infantry upgrades, but if you want to go that route, I'm going to say that gren upgrades for LMG & shrek are at least as good as BAR & sticky... one is better at killing, the other better at pinning & engine damage.  I didn't bring them up because they are comparable in desirability.

You quoted a section I already crossed out because I tested the practicality of it, and found I was wrong.  Hence why it was, you know, crossed out, with an [EDIT] beneath explaining myself.



You should probably make an effort to understand what I am trying to communicate before creating such an argument against points I .... was.... not.....making.

Get your panties unbunched, I'm not crying for nerfs to your beloved Axis prices, or stats.  I am commenting on the balance between the two factions in 1) Early War and 2) R+ Mode


Its almost as important an aspect of balance as prices, popcap values, and unit stats.

I agree early war that axis has an advantage, but feel it shifts the other way late war. R+ mode it's true also, because Allies generally tend to win in attrition, rather than in capping ability.

[scrapking]

.30 cal kills faster

No it doesn't (well not to significant degree anyway )

howie has muuuuchhh more range and does much more damage

That's what he said - except you didn't mention the stuka's mobility. If the first couple of shells are not on target its not too hard to dodge a howie barrage

Panther > 76mm Sherman

it is like comparing a pershing to a stug

No its not, he is comparing each sides heaviest non-doctrinal tank, as opposed to the weakest of one side and the strongest of the other.

Mr Fanboy

A panther costs 590fuel, 700ish manpower. It's drastically more expensive than a sherman, in fact to recover its fuel costs it needs to kill at least two shermans, AND it can ONLY kill tanks, it fails at killing infantry.

The point is, Mrs. Fanboy, that it is still something available to the Wehrmacht when the Allies have no such choice.  Then, at 16 POP, the Allies cannot bring 2 Shermans.  They cannot put a single unit as powerful as a Panther on the field without doctrine unlocks.

Its NOT about the balance between Shermans and Panthers....  I never said it was.  It is about one faction having the option to get it in every doctrine, at a time when Americans cannot field anything like it.  I was just pointing out each faction's best available tank options without doctrine unlocks.

The point is, that Axis should have to unlock Panthers to allow Allies a chance to basically catch up on PP expense to even the field.  Axis should also unlock Stukas, and Nebels, and KCH as well.  However I am NOT suggesting that any of those units should cost more resources.  To be honest, that should probably apply to the Firefly as well, although I was never really considering British or PE in the first place.


People....   reading comprehension FTW, before you argue against points I am not making...  please.

[scrapking]

I agree early war that axis has an advantage, but feel it shifts the other way late war. R+ mode it's true also, because Allies generally tend to win in attrition, rather than in capping ability.

Yes, and when that situation becomes more clear - once the full doctrine trees are fully released - you bet I'll comment on that too.

But for these situations, I suggest that availability, unlock PP cost, and to some extent POPcap are all much more important stats than resource pricing, because what I am looking at here, is

1) How much of something you can have

2) when you can have it

3)  How much of it you can get on the field at once, especially early in the game - moreso in R+ mode because only 25 pop from each side is there, making every unit out even more vital - and imbalances more severe.

[Baine]

.30 cal kills faster

No it doesn't (well not to significant degree anyway )

howie has muuuuchhh more range and does much more damage

That's what he said - except you didn't mention the stuka's mobility. If the first couple of shells are not on target its not too hard to dodge a howie barrage

Panther > 76mm Sherman

it is like comparing a pershing to a stug

No its not, he is comparing each sides heaviest non-doctrinal tank, as opposed to the weakest of one side and the strongest of the other.

Mr Fanboy

A panther costs 590fuel, 700ish manpower. It's drastically more expensive than a sherman, in fact to recover its fuel costs it needs to kill at least two shermans, AND it can ONLY kill tanks, it fails at killing infantry.

The point is, Mrs. Fanboy, that it is still something available to the Wehrmacht when the Allies have no such choice.  Then, at 16 POP, the Allies cannot bring 2 Shermans.  They cannot put a single unit as powerful as a Panther on the field without doctrine unlocks.

Its NOT about the balance between Shermans and Panthers....  I never said it was.  It is about one faction having the option to get it in every doctrine, at a time when Americans cannot field anything like it.  I was just pointing out each faction's best available tank options without doctrine unlocks.

The point is, that Axis should have to unlock Panthers to allow Allies a chance to basically catch up on PP expense to even the field.  Axis should also unlock Stukas, and Nebels, and KCH as well.  However I am NOT suggesting that any of those units should cost more resources.  To be honest, that should probably apply to the Firefly as well, although I was never really considering British or PE in the first place.


People....   reading comprehension FTW, before you argue against points I am not making...  please.

Sorry but you forget that a Panther means lot less amount of tanks for axis. An average allied player fields 4 tanks, not counting armor players who even have more available.
The axis are supposed to have better Tanks from start on, while allies need either AT or more tanks.

Also: Allies have more or less 3 different at tanks available. The M10 that penetrates alot, the normal Sherman and an upgunned Sherman.
Axis(not counting Panther) would only have the Stug(comparable to normal Sherman) whose static gun is easily strafed and the P4 who has troubles to kill an upgunned sherman. That would make Axis armor inferior to allies armor. That can't be right.

[scrapking]

Baine, I'm not going to repeat myself again.  You are going to have to reread what I said and figure out why what you said doesn't apply.  At all.

I've only said it several times now.  Sometimes with boldface, or italics, and sometimes with #s in front.

[Baine]

Baine, I'm not going to repeat myself again.  You are going to have to reread what I said and figure out why what you said doesn't apply.  At all.

I've only said it several times now.  Sometimes with boldface, or italics, and sometimes with #s in front.

I reread it, and honestly don't know what you want. Making the Panther an unlock ability won't balance anything. It will turn the shit in favour of allies, nothing more.
It worked quite well in the last years with the Panther as anormal unit and not some kind of unlock.
And i know that EiR is not EiRR but can we please wait until the doctrines are out and then come back to this discussion?
I fear that you want to act way too fast.