LittleJohn Adapter

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[overfreeze222]

this need a serious price increase. in the current version its 75 munitions. it gives the tetrach 3x the amount of penetration as an up-gunned Sherman. it killed a tiger from the front at max range. I feel this should be raised in price significantly, maybe 90 or 100 munis. it cost less than a schreck but penetrates nearly every shot, and does about half the damage of one. if u have 2 or 3 running around ur tanks at one time, there speed = very hard to hit, which makes it very hard to kill them. even 1v1 its hard to kill them, and even if u do keep ur front armor facing them, it still goes thru.

plz think this thru

[Mysthalin]

I take it you're reffering to the game we just had. The tiger got shot at medium range, actually, in the ass first, then got finished off into the side armor(I was the one using the tetrarch, I would know). Remember the 2 first tetrarchs though - they got raped by the shreks and the panther, and bounced a shitload of shots on the panther(eventually finished off by a cromwel + M10 rush)

The LJA does one thing, and one thing only - it incrases the penetration on a tetrarch. It's on a rather weak platform(albeit hard to hit one), but it's still 250 hp on that tank. 100 munitions, on something that's got less HP than a KCH squad? I don't know... It'll just make sure you're gonna penetrate the ass all the time, but not allways the front

The tetrarch isn't that good vs infantry, and yes, with the LJA it likes to penetrate a lot of things, but it's nothing too extreme. It's just a nice, very micro intensive tank. Sometimes you fail with them, sometimes you eat people alive with it. I personaly believe 70 munitions for the upgun is fine.

Also, take into account brits have no other form of really mobile AT, and it's just the commando doctrine that has them. Remember, that the commando doctrine is very munitions intensive(as is the whole brit faction, actualy). Take into account the overall of things. The tetrarch, with upgun, is basically a mobile(very mobile) RR, that can't get suppressed.

[Draken]

Maybe it is OP, but leave it. Brits needs atm buffs not nerfs.

[Mysthalin]

And yes, I forgot to mention that the LJA gives you tripple penetration of a standard tetrarch, not tripple penetration of an upgun sherman.
And also, a sherman could have killed that tiger the same way the tettie did - it's all about the dicerolls.

[Mysthalin]

Double posters deserve to die, I know.

But, according to CoHStats, the Tetrarch gun has only a 0.14 chance to penetrate the front armor of a Panther. 0.42 to penetrate the P4. 0.31 to penetrate the StuG. 0.173 to penetrate the Tiger. 0.381 to penetrate the Jagdpanther. 0.7 chance to penetrate the ostwind. Won't use the ostwind in further calculations, as it's only capable of not getting penetrated by the tet if it does not have the LJA.
With the Little John Adapter, the numbers change to :
0.42 chance to penetrate Panther.
1.26 to penetrate the P4.
0.93 to penetrate the StuG.
0.519 to penetrate the Tiger.
1.143 to penetrate the JagdPanther.
So, all in all, it's actually just luck(lack of luck for the wehrmacht) that a tetrarch with upgun would penetrate the Tiger.

There are also severe drawbacks for firing at longer range :
0.66 penetration modifier at Long Range.
0.83 penetration modifier at Medium Range.
1.00 penetration modifier at Close Range.

So the stats will become :
Medium Range :
Panther - 0.3486.
P4 - 1.0458 (the tet will always penetrate the P4 from close/medium range.).
StuG - 0.7719.
Tiger - 0.43077
JagdPanther - 0.94869

Long Range :
Panther - 0.2772
P4 - 0.8316
StuG - 0.6138
Tiger - 0.34254
JagdPanther - 0.75438

So frankly, the tetrarch doesn't have a sure chance to penetrate any tank at all(excluding Ostwind) at long range. The Jagdpanther is probably a borked numeral, though, should be changed to Tiger like survivability vs the tettie, really - less resistant than a StuG is a bit lame :S.

[sgMisten]

Fun Fact regarding Tets and LJA:

A Tet, with LJA, only has around 16% chance to penetrate a Hetzer from the front. That's right, WITH LJA.

I found this out happily in vCoH in a 1v1 when the Hetzer I had on the field, along with 2 Marder 3s and 2 tankbusters took on 5 overrepaired Tets (+300 hp each) with LJA and won. The only thing that survived the battle was the Hetzer.

[Mysthalin]

Doh!
You're right misten, a tetrarch without upgun has a 5.4 percent(0.054) chance to penetrate a hetzer!
With LJA that's 16.2 percent! LOL!
Yeah, jagdpanther needs to get penetrated less, and the hetzer needs to get pennetrated more ^^.

[BigDick]

who ever need to penetrate the hetzer (a turret less tank) with an 8 speed tank (in this case tetrach) from the front should really work on his tank micro (rear penetration of the hetzer should be 11.6)

and actually the tetrach little john upgrade buff penetration to 3.6x not only 3x

but i don't think the issue with the tetrach is in upgrade price for the little john adapter (maybe 80 munition would be a fair price when the tetrach gets a fuel increase)
the issue is in the price for the unit itsself
80 fuel is way to low for this thing especially with its high dodging of all tank guns

to sad that there is no accuracy modifier shown on coh stats against the tetrach because this in combination with moving accuracy against this thing must be insane

its almost impossible to hit a moving tetrach with a panzer4 and since it get with little john adapter a penetration of 1.52 against panzer4 frontal armor (not counted how easily it is to get rear shots with this thing) with almost sherman damage it is really insane to make it 80 fuel

[Mysthalin]

250 HP on the tetrarch does not really account for a cost higher than 80 FU.

The tetrarch uses the same armor type as a greyhound - greyhound costs 60 FU, just that the tet has more HP(150 HP on stock greyhound, 300 on skirted). It's got better pathing, the tet, which is why it seems to be so uber at dodging things. In actuality, the tet is technicaly easier to kill than a greyhound. The tet actually dodges tanks less often than a puma does - just that tetrarchs love to drive faster than the turrets of enemy tanks. Try 2 paks - defeats 4 tetrarchs.

And no, LJA gives exactly 3x penetration (modifier of 3.0).
If you think using a tetrarch is easy, I urge you to actualy TRY! It's much harder than it looks.

[Smokaz]

Oh really..

Attachment: http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=490239

I dont think artificially high dodge bonuses and speed makes a unit pro to use.. its actually easier to use a more survivable and responsive unit

[BigDick]

actually the tetrach has 300HP not 250

that is double HP of a M8 (or like the M8 with skirts) combined with this insane speed (and the same dodging chance) and possibility to drop behind enemy lines, to kill artillery (hummel) and wounded tanks

with his high damage and high penetration (especially with LJA) the difference between an M8 with skirts should be more then only + 30 fuel

i would always trade a stug against a tetrach even when stug is doubled fuel

to make the LjA much more expensive cannot be the solution because this upgrade would not be used anymore when it is 100 or more munition

but iam sure that the tetrach itself is worth to get it for 130 fuel

[Mysthalin]

http://www.coh-stats.com/factions/british/units/tetrarch.html

Read the hitpoints part and tell that in my face again.

It's got 75 damage. Pretty much 20 percent better than an RR. The penetration is hardly uber, as I have stated previously, and especially not without the LJA(gl penetrating a hetzer with a 5 percent chance lol).

The speed is, surely, great, but it's still not instant win if you manage to get stuck or outmicroed, or just blatantly shot by a pak.

What you would do, is none of our business bigdick, I'd rather have a Panther over a Firefly or two cromwells, to be honest.

It would be used at over 100 munitions, as it is with the greyhound skirts. It'd be non-viable, overpriced but you'd still buy it because you, frankly, have to, otherwise the whole unit is useless at it's tank hunting role.

The tetrarch by itself is NOT worth 130 fuel, for the sheer reason that it would not be worth buying at all.
Take into account the tetrarchs manpower cost - it's 340 MP. A cromwell, for comparison, costs 370 manpower to field. It's a pretty high cost - 340 MP and 80 FU for a tank that can only kill light vehicles and fare decently vs infantry. With a 340 MP 130 FU cost it would be extremely excesive. With the LJA the tetrarch starts beating tanks, but if you have a single grenadier in support of your tank, you won't feel the wrath of the tetrarch, as the targeting priority vs grenadiers is higher than vs tanks for the tetrarchs gun.

http://www.coh-stats.com/factions/british/abilities/littlejohn.html
In response to the comment about the tet having a 3.6 pen modifier with LJA.

As for Smokaz - mate, noone watches replays put in balance discussion threads. I wouldn't bother even if it didn't have the name "tetrarch spam" wich implies use of gimmicky tactics.

[BigDick]

http://www.coh-stats.com/factions/british/units/tetrarch.html

Read the hitpoints part and tell that in my face again.

nice try afaik they use the stats from the beta

http://coh-stats.com/Vehicle:Tetrarch_Light_Tank

300 HP

It's got 75 damage. Pretty much 20 percent better than an RR. The penetration is

that is 12.5 less damage than a panzer4 or a sherman does and very high for "light" armor

hardly uber, as I have stated previously, and especially not without the LJA(gl penetrating a hetzer with a 5 percent chance lol).

no one with half way decent tank micro needs to penetrate the frontal armour of a turret less hetzer with a 8 speed tetrach tank
he can get awesome 11.6 penetration easiely

What you would do, is none of our business bigdick, I'd rather have a Panther over a Firefly or two cromwells, to be honest.

stay on topic please and a panther is much more cost then a firefly

the tetrach (topic) is at half price of a stug and not much more expensive then a M8

http://www.coh-stats.com/factions/british/abilities/littlejohn.html
In response to the comment about the tet having a 3.6 pen modifier with LJA.

http://coh-stats.com/Upgrade:Littlejohn_Adapter

3.6

but it doesnt matter if it is 3 or 3.6x penetration

i see the role of the tetrach without little john adapter in a support unit (like M8) to help against hmgs, mortar infantry without shreks and light armor and with LJA in a light armored, extremely fast and mobile tankhunter/finish off role