updated vet discussion

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[Rocksitter]

 Why not give Storm Troopers regen back??

 The Panther should be the best Tank on the battle field not the King Tiger!

[VariantThirteen]

Smokaz, the KT is almost hardcountered by riflemen stickies. There is no way you can sell me that the KT is much more than mediocre. I ran a double KT company last war, and TBH other than KT starts that baited disproportionate AT responses, it was a very expensive damage sponge.

German Steel was the only thing that made KTs a force, Subversion didn't even really favour KT use.

The KT is not a hero of the Reich. I still love my old heavy armour, but I don't think you could make a real argument for it being better than the PIVs you could afford in it's absence.

[salan]

Salan, +10 range at each vet level is huge. Panther already is the highest range tank other than the Firefly. At most it should be +5 at vet2, and +5 at vet3 (range will be 57.5, which is STILL MORE than a Firefly. Currently, you're increasing it's range to 67.5!! That's more than AT guns, and the Marder.)

I disagree panzer.  Panthers are overpriced to begin with, and unlike the firefly it cannot spot for itself.   In order to utilize the 67.5 range, you'd have to have a forward deployed unit, which can be destroyed and deny the panther LOS.

You can't deny a firefly+cmd tank sight by blowing up a forward observer.

If its changed to +5 range, then it should gain +10 sight at vet 2/3.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the panthers range for PE variant, sorry panzer.

It was chosen to be different then the Wehr version, to  be able to fight outside of a improved 17 pounder range, and compete with fireflies.  Also no one was really buying the PE panther because it was not a 'draw' enough for them to do so.  its price wasn't about to change and we discussed it as a group and decided it was a good fit.

Doubt it will be changing anytime soon.  they still don't get played correctly most of the time anyways.

[Schultz]

Why not give Storm Troopers regen back??

Stormies are not what they used to. Their survivability is so much limitted due to not having regeneration. You tie so much munitions in them and they cant even heal themselves. Cloak is all they have now. Grens can do their job in all other fronts cheaper.

[Tymathee]

stormies are a really good unit. They're not front line troops, they're ambush troops. Storms have more health than any special infantry out there that is a doctrine choice (ranger, commando, fjs, etc.) mp40's are great close range and if you can sneak up on a unit or support weapon, takes it out in no time, bundle nades can take out hmgs in houses and whole squads, or you can throw it as an hmg, knock it down and then get close enuff so it can hit you can finish it off, use the double schreck to sneak behind a tank or wait for it to pass by and pop it in its butt. And they cost about as much as a ranger squad, which isn't nearly as good as a storm squad. Not to mention the cloak can be used to scout, sit by an enemy spawn and watch what they bring in, etc. Stormies are fine the way they are.

stormies in the old eir were insanely good and there were several in the leaderboards. even now i see plenty of vet 1 and vet 2 stormies and they're still a pain in the butt. You got your suppression modifier changed, and yet you still want more...

[Rocksitter]

 Ya I still want more ,they should be able to be a front line fighter and a sneak kill unit all in one why do I have to pick one or the other?
 There Storm Troopers everyone knows there name for a reason there is not one Inf unit in the game that should be able to kick there ass one V one unupgunned...

 The suppresion was just silly there elite Storm units that get surppresed when looked at that needed changing.

[Smokaz]

King Tiger can soak up an incredible amount of damage, it 2 shots at guns mostly and it demands AP rounds from 57mms for them to be effective against it. P4s cannot establish a new frontline in the way a king tiger can. The key is not to focus on microing the KT or to expect it to survive, the key is to keep the front armor facing the most dangerous offenders and to keep it driving towards the enemy while moving up all your paks, mgs and other support weapons behind it.

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=8749.0

This is not a uncommon performance for a King tiger, and it paid for its cost LONG before the 5% luck started to kick in. Look at the ace in the same replay, it did nothing in comparison.

Use roads to boost its speed against rifles and if you do get stickied, push it to take damage and move everything up behind it.

Against americans, the King Tiger is still a king of the battlefield. Properely managed brits should have zero problems with any kind of armor because of the long distance dominance of the firefly and the short distance domination of button, which sadly boils down to faction design.

[Schultz]

Why not give Storm Troopers regen back??

Thats a good suggestion.

[Tymathee]

Ya I still want more ,they should be able to be a front line fighter and a sneak kill unit all in one why do I have to pick one or the other?
 There Storm Troopers everyone knows there name for a reason there is not one Inf unit in the game that should be able to kick there ass one V one unupgunned...

 The suppresion was just silly there elite Storm units that get surppresed when looked at that needed changing.

lmao are you kidding? there is NO unit that can do both, a front line and ambush, and storms cost what, 300?

also rocksitter, from talking 2 u and playing against you, your opinion on this shouldn't be valued...you're the only person i've seen use storm's with no  upgrades and even use them uncloaked to begin with. You want storms to fit into how you play, not  you fit into how they play.

Rangers = 315 mp
Storms = 300 mp
Commando's - 320 MP, 160 Mun
KCH - 320 MP, 110 Mun
Fallschirmjager - 250 MP,

so basically, you want storms to be better than commando's and kch, yet keep their price? :smh:

[Smokaz]

Meh mp44s on storms ARE overpriced.. its almost TWO thompson upgrades to upgrade one storm squad with "double" mp44s. (-60 munitions)

The shreks are correctly expensive as they can be used for hit-n-runs around corners with cloak and double shrek ambushes in general are very powerful on storms. With the removal of regeneration, mp44 storms have a very short lifespan and are definitely not worth getting for fighting regular rifles and tommies.

[Tymathee]

well yeah smokaz, cuz they're not mainline infantry, they're ambush troops and they're priced accordingly. Yes their upgrades are expensive but when you use them correcly, they're nasty. There's nothing more feared of by an allied player than someone who is good with stormies.

[Rocksitter]

 I just had changed my squad i usually have shreks like I told you and who ever you played with and also you guys rushed with a jeep so I was not able to cloak..

 But what you said proves my point if I want sneeky hit and run I buy shrek if not I can use them has fromt line fighters with MP44s but has they sit I need to purchase a upgrade to even make them usfull at all the shrek...
 As a unit if you dont buy storm troopers any upgrades or should i say shreks what are they good for exept spotting and hoping not to get spotted..
 
 So value that ...Tim LAYW

[Tymathee]

ok, and rangers cost more than storms, without upgrades, they're basically rifles that can break suppression, oooh...scary, then what?

I'd rather have cloak for 300 mp than no cloak for 315mp. You obviously just haven't mastered storms yet. I know for sure i haven't, which is why i didn't use them much when I played as wehr sometimes. I just don't have the patience to play around with storms but they are nasty units. playing as pe I love people who use their storms well, scouting is a huge asset in eir, i'd gladly as allies pay 300 mp for a unit that can cloak and scout for me w/o being seen. You have it nice, plsu, they have 90 health for god sakes, the most an american unit gets is 65.

storms aren't front line units, just deal with it.

[BigDick]

ok, and rangers cost more than storms, without upgrades, they're basically rifles that can break suppression, oooh...scary, then what?

if you really believe this - no comment -

I'd rather have cloak for 300 mp than no cloak for 315mp.

and i'd rather have fireup and cheap thomsons that make my squad deal almost 100% damage until more than 50% is gone

they have 90 health for god sakes, the most an american unit gets is 65.

they have 85 health, american infantry get 50% more men per squad with 65Health each (and elite armor)
you can do the math....

[Schultz]

Meh mp44s on storms ARE overpriced.. its almost TWO thompson upgrades to upgrade one storm squad with "double" mp44s. (-60 munitions)

The shreks are correctly expensive as they can be used for hit-n-runs around corners with cloak and double shrek ambushes in general are very powerful on storms. With the removal of regeneration, mp44 storms have a very short lifespan and are definitely not worth getting for fighting regular rifles and tommies.

Yep pretty much, mp44 isnt what it used to. Life span is an issue to shrek stormies as well, if you remember our game smoky.

Mp40s as well. Cause by the time volks close up to actually have any use, theyre dead  . 75 munition ? Yeah right. To charge with assault weps one has to be in a mood for adventure and sign a death warrant first.

[Tymathee]

if you really believe this - no comment -

Rangers cost 315
Storms cost 300

Vanilla Rangers get 5 garands and 1 carbine 57 dmg (5 10's + 7)
vanilla stormes get 3 kar98 elite's and one leader 60 dmg (all 15)

i'm not going into dps i dont care about all that.

so believe what smart ass?

and i'd rather have fireup and cheap thomsons that make my squad deal almost 100% damage until more than 50% is gone

cheap thompsons? they're 140 muni and mp44's are way better than thompsons.

50% more men per squad? really? its 6 to 4 and range vs storm. Try an mp44 stormie vs a smg ranger, see what happens. yeah, the storms win. More often than not, get a storm squad with dual mp44's vs any allied infantry other than commando's and they win. There is nothing wrong with stormies, you get high health, they cloak, and powerful units and upgrades. You also get med kits and bundled nades. Buy yourself a med-kit and when you cloak after a battle, pop that sucker and ur storms are fine.

i'm not trying to try that storms are all powerful but you make them out like they suck which they don't, they're very good units in the right hands.

and why does it seem that most of the discussions are about axis stuff? you guys complain so much about your units, it's ridiculous. It was the same pre-reinforcements too so dont even try to bring that up. Anywho. leave storms alone, they alreayd got a price reduction, got freakin suppression fixed, schrecks and mp44's cost less than they were before, cheaper med kits and bundled nades, yet you still whine, my god.

[EscforrealityTLS]

Double MP44 storms cost 300MP 240Mun with SMG rangers costing 315MP 140Mun. For Storm troopers to win some of the time is not cost effective. 

[Tymathee]

^ they dont win some of the time, they win all of the time vs rangers.

http://www.coh-stats.com/Zaxis/mgs/

[Mysthalin]

Actually, a single StG44 upgrade on a storm squad will obliterate a commando squad..

[Tymathee]

Actually, a single StG44 upgrade on a storm squad will obliterate a commando squad..

wow really? are commandos really that bad lol i tried using them once, just couldn't get the hang of them, never used them in vcoh either unless they're in a blob of other tommies.