[PE] Hummel

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[gamesguy2]

I think the Hummel needs to be made cheaper.  Currently, as compared to the priest.

1. Priest is cheaper by quite a lot, more than 120 fuel cheaper.

2. Priest fires 2 extra shots, this isn't really useful except when trying to destroy a fixed position like a bunker, at which point its very useful

3. Priest has better accuracy.  I originally thought the Hummel had better accuracy, but apparently its not true.  I will upload a replay using cheat mod showing the barrage pattern difference between 10 hummels and 10 priests later.

My suggestion would be to make the hummel's price match the price of the priest, alternatively, take 20 seconds off its cooldown.

[Tymathee]

it depends on where you fire. If within the yellow cone, the hummel is dead on almost and the priest still spreads. the Hummel is more powerful vs vehicles, i've seen it take out a half  health sherman in one hit, you dont get that with allied artillery units (even a callie if it hits a p4 needs ALOT of hits)

[gamesguy2]

it depends on where you fire. If within the yellow cone, the hummel is dead on almost and the priest still spreads. the Hummel is more powerful vs vehicles, i've seen it take out a half  health sherman in one hit, you dont get that with allied artillery units (even a callie if it hits a p4 needs ALOT of hits)

Priest does 200 damage per shell, 6 shells, .75 modifier vs sherman.  Hummel does 200 damage per shell, 4 shells, no modifiers.  Both always penetrates.

The difference is not overly significant.

Hummel does not have better accuracy.

http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=490441

View that replay with the latest version of cheat mod(its on file front).  Hummel fired from a position closer to the target and yet still had worse accuracy.

[NightRain]

Notice too that Priest has a Machinegun to protect from infantry rush and Hummel has nothing to defend itself.
I saw once a replay where a Priest destroyed a ATHT with its machinegun xD

So yes it is counted too =)

[Tymathee]

well, even on coh stats it shows the priest is cheap than the humel, mainly because the priest has a much shorter range than the Hummel.

(Priest 300/50, Hummel 480/120)

Priest range 175, Hummel 250

this is why the Hummel costs more, it can fire at a much longer range.

Also, when the priest fires, which is why the accuracy may seem better, the med range is 150 and max 175, for hummel its 150/250, so i dunno, maybe because med and long is so close, it will retain some of its med accuracy.

also, if you look at the target tables, the Hummel gets 100% penetraion or more against everything meaning it wil give its full 200 damage against any target regardless of where it hits, meaning it can even do a lot of damage to a pershing as much as it will do vs a sherman. the Hummel is more meant as a precision artillery meant to take out important targets more than a blob reducer like allied artillery and other forms of artillery .they are excellent at taking down buildings, they're great vs emplacements, if there's tanks coming, its min range is 50, instead of 80 like the priest, so it can somewhat defend itself even.

Maybe it does need a price nerf though but to say that its useless is incorrect. I tried playing with it and its difficult to keep alive with no paks and hmgs, but i just have to learn how to fit it into the eir environment and I'm sure when someone figures out hwo to use the hummel in eir, it will be beastly.

[gamesguy2]

well, even on coh stats it shows the priest is cheap than the humel, mainly because the priest has a much shorter range than the Hummel.

(Priest 300/50, Hummel 480/120)

Priest range 175, Hummel 250

this is why the Hummel costs more, it can fire at a much longer range.

The EIR version of the priest has supercharge, which outranges the hummel.

Also, when the priest fires, which is why the accuracy may seem better, the med range is 150 and max 175, for hummel its 150/250, so i dunno, maybe because med and long is so close, it will retain some of its med accuracy.

It doesn't matter why the accuracy is better, the point is, the priest was firing from further away and still had better scatter.

also, if you look at the target tables, the Hummel gets 100% penetraion or more against everything meaning it wil give its full 200 damage against any target regardless of where it hits, meaning it can even do a lot of damage to a pershing as much as it will do vs a sherman. the Hummel is more meant as a precision artillery meant to take out important targets more than a blob reducer like allied artillery and other forms of artillery .they are excellent at taking down buildings, they're great vs emplacements, if there's tanks coming, its min range is 50, instead of 80 like the priest, so it can somewhat defend itself even.

The only allied supertank is the pershing.  Priest only bounces on axis super tanks like tigers.  In addition, your entire paragraph about hummel being precision artillery is irrelevant because the priest has better accuracy.

Ya like you actually use the minimum range, I can't remember the last time I fired a hummel or a priest anywhere near its minimum range.  If you're firing at close, you're about to lose it.

Maybe it does need a price nerf though but to say that its useless is incorrect. I tried playing with it and its difficult to keep alive with no paks and hmgs, but i just have to learn how to fit it into the eir environment and I'm sure when someone figures out hwo to use the hummel in eir, it will be beastly.

Where did I say anything about it being useless?  I said the priest is superior in nearly all aspects and is cheaper as well, which means hummel needs a price decrease, or a cooldown decrease.

[Tymathee]

well, even on coh stats it shows the priest is cheap than the humel, mainly because the priest has a much shorter range than the Hummel.

(Priest 300/50, Hummel 480/120)

Priest range 175, Hummel 250

this is why the Hummel costs more, it can fire at a much longer range.

I'm almost certain the version of the priest used in EIR is the version with supercharge, which outranges the hummel.

Nope, EIRR uses no supercharge on anything, it's a doc ability.

Also, when the priest fires, which is why the accuracy may seem better, the med range is 150 and max 175, for hummel its 150/250, so i dunno, maybe because med and long is so close, it will retain some of its med accuracy.

It doesn't matter why the accuracy is better, the point is, the priest was firing from further away and still had better scatter.
[/quote]

You mean the Hummel was firing from farther away? Were you firing from the same distance, or at their max ranges?

also, if you look at the target tables, the Hummel gets 100% penetraion or more against everything meaning it wil give its full 200 damage against any target regardless of where it hits, meaning it can even do a lot of damage to a pershing as much as it will do vs a sherman. the Hummel is more meant as a precision artillery meant to take out important targets more than a blob reducer like allied artillery and other forms of artillery .they are excellent at taking down buildings, they're great vs emplacements, if there's tanks coming, its min range is 50, instead of 80 like the priest, so it can somewhat defend itself even.

The only allied supertank is the pershing.  Priest only bounces on axis super tanks like tigers.  In addition, your entire paragraph about hummel being precision artillery is irrelevant because the priest has better accuracy.
[/quote]

Priest doesn't only bounce on axis super tanks, according to the pen tables, most axis tanks have a below 100% pen vs the priest shells, so if it does hit frontal armor, it still has chance to bounce. Matter of fact, the priest and howitzer use the same shell and pen tables and i know for a fact i've seen a howie shot bounce on a stug/h, and panzer 4. Also like I asked, did you fire from same range or max range?

Maybe it does need a price nerf though but to say that its useless is incorrect. I tried playing with it and its difficult to keep alive with no paks and hmgs, but i just have to learn how to fit it into the eir environment and I'm sure when someone figures out hwo to use the hummel in eir, it will be beastly.

Where did I say anything about it being useless?  I said the priest is superior in nearly all aspects and is cheaper as well, which means hummel needs a price decrease, or a cooldown decrease.
[/quote]

priest isn't superior. Priest is only 1 unit faster and has slower acceleration. The hummel cool down is smaller than the priest, i think i once posted what each artillery's cooldown was and I know for sure by memory the priest has one of the longer cooldowns.

Ok, I found the list.

Allies
Callie = 160 seconds (2 minutes 40 seconds)
Priest = 160 seconds (2 minutes 40 seconds)
Howitzer = 180 seconds (3 minutes)
25 Pounder = 180 seconds (3 minutes)

Axis
Nebel = 90 seconds (1 minute 30 seconds)
Stuka 120 seconds (2 minutes)
Hummel = 140 seconds (2 minutes 20 seconds)

even though its only 20 seconds, that can make a difference over a game.

[gamesguy2]

Ok, I found the list.

Allies
Callie = 160 seconds (2 minutes 40 seconds)
Priest = 160 seconds (2 minutes 40 seconds)
Howitzer = 180 seconds (3 minutes)
25 Pounder = 180 seconds (3 minutes)

Axis
Nebel = 90 seconds (1 minute 30 seconds)
Stuka 120 seconds (2 minutes)
Hummel = 140 seconds (2 minutes 20 seconds)

even though its only 20 seconds, that can make a difference over a game.

The superior accuracy, shells fired, and range of the priest more than makes up for the 20 seconds of recharge difference.

Hummel should not cost so much more than a priest.

[Tymathee]

Ok, I found the list.

Allies
Callie = 160 seconds (2 minutes 40 seconds)
Priest = 160 seconds (2 minutes 40 seconds)
Howitzer = 180 seconds (3 minutes)
25 Pounder = 180 seconds (3 minutes)

Axis
Nebel = 90 seconds (1 minute 30 seconds)
Stuka 120 seconds (2 minutes)
Hummel = 140 seconds (2 minutes 20 seconds)

even though its only 20 seconds, that can make a difference over a game.

The superior accuracy, shells fired, and range of the priest more than makes up for the 20 seconds of recharge difference.

Hummel should not cost so much more than a priest.

Yea, i thought i posted something else earlier but i didn't, meh, go back and read the post. Also...in priest vs Hummel, the Hummel vet is "better"

Hummel (0.5)
-Vet1 Received Damage .75
-Vet2 Damage 1.2, Speed 1.1, Barrage cooldown -20s,
-Vet3 Damage 1.1, Speed 1.2, Barrage cooldown -20s

Priest (0.7)
-Vet1 Speed 1.25, Reload 0.9
-Vet2 Reload 0.8, Recharge -20s, Additional Creeping Barrage
-Vet3 Reload 0.8, Recharge -20s

so, while the Hummel gets more damage, the priest just gets more reload (shells fire faster) which the Hummel gets when it locks down anyway. (25% faster, which is what priest gets at vet 3) so meh...but i already agreed Hummel is expensive but it has a different use than the priest as well.

[Tymathee]

but then looking at prices

Priest Self Propelled Artillery - 465 MP, 355 F, 11 pop   (Recharges 160 seconds)

Hummel - 515 MP, 480 F, 10 pop   (Recharges 140 seconds)

how much more can the price go? Lower the fuel requirement maybe? I dunno...do you even use the Hummel? I've never seen you with one.

[gamesguy2]

Nope, EIRR uses no supercharge on anything, it's a doc ability.

You're wrong.  I just had a game with misten who has a priest, it had supercharge.

You mean the Hummel was firing from farther away? Were you firing from the same distance, or at their max ranges?

I mean the hummel has less range than the priest, so I moved it closer to the target.  Just download cheat mod and watch the replay.   The hummel was about 20 units closer to the target than the priest.

Priest doesn't only bounce on axis super tanks, according to the pen tables, most axis tanks have a below 100% pen vs the priest shells, so if it does hit frontal armor, it still has chance to bounce. Matter of fact, the priest and howitzer use the same shell and pen tables and i know for a fact i've seen a howie shot bounce on a stug/h, and panzer 4. Also like I asked, did you fire from same range or max range?

Nope.  Priest has over 100% chance to penetrate a P4, it starts bouncing at stugs, but it still has 91% chance to penetrate a stug, hardly signnificant.  Against medium tanks the priest and the hummel performs nearly the same.  The priest does a bit lower damage per shell to medium tanks but fires more.

Watch the freaking replay. I already told you.  I fired the priest at a spotted patch of ground from a bit under its max range.  I positioned the hummels at the same spot, found that it was actually out of the hummel's range, and then spawned the hummels closer to the target so its firing a bit under its max range just like the priest.  The end result is the priest had better spread, not overly so, but noticable.

priest isn't superior. Priest is only 1 unit faster and has slower acceleration. The hummel cool down is smaller than the priest, i think i once posted what each artillery's cooldown was and I know for sure by memory the priest has one of the longer cooldowns.

...

I just showed that the priest has longer range, more shells fired, and better accuracy, and you're quibbling over 0.2 worth of difference in acceleration?  The priest being one unit faster is also extremely significant as at 4 speed the priest can outrun infantry, where as at 3 speed hummel moves at the same speed as infantry.

[Smokaz]

Hummel should be at least as good if not better than the priest considering the horrible lack of supression a PE player has without mg reinforcements from terror and his extreme lack of indirect fire. The short range of the mortar halftrack makes it very vulnerable to kill unless it is heavily protected.

I havent seen a single game where the hummel owns it up, just loads of failures.

Technically PE should be able to protect it, and shells landing in the middle of the british blob should decimate it.. g43 slow on elite infantry and AT on tanks.  But I havent seen it yet, personally.

[gamesguy2]

Yea, i thought i posted something else earlier but i didn't, meh, go back and read the post. Also...in priest vs Hummel, the Hummel vet is "better"

Hummel (0.5)
-Vet1 Received Damage .75
-Vet2 Damage 1.2, Speed 1.1, Barrage cooldown -20s,
-Vet3 Damage 1.1, Speed 1.2, Barrage cooldown -20s

Priest (0.7)
-Vet1 Speed 1.25, Reload 0.9
-Vet2 Reload 0.8, Recharge -20s, Additional Creeping Barrage
-Vet3 Reload 0.8, Recharge -20s

so, while the Hummel gets more damage, the priest just gets more reload (shells fire faster) which the Hummel gets when it locks down anyway. (25% faster, which is what priest gets at vet 3) so meh...but i already agreed Hummel is expensive but it has a different use than the priest as well.

Except the hummel and the priest fires shell at an identical rate.  Lockdown a hummel next to a priest, have them barrage the same thing at the same time, watch the synchronized shells fly at the exact same time.  This is a no vet priest with a locked down hummel.

So no, hummel does not have better vet.

Hummel does not have a different use compared to the priest.  Both are used to take down support weapons and other relatively stationary targets.  You don't buy a hummel to try and kill tanks.

[Tymathee]

wait, hummel doesn't have better vet, yet you say that reload doesn't play a difference in the time the shells are fired? If that's so, then priest reload is totally useless, it's basically 25% more speed and -40s on a vet 3 priest (extra creeping is broken)  while a hummel at vet 3 gets 25% reduced damage (50% when locked down) 30% more damage, 30% more speed and -40s on cooldown, how can u say it doesn't get better vet?

[gamesguy2]

wait, hummel doesn't have better vet, yet you say that reload doesn't play a difference in the time the shells are fired? If that's so, then priest reload is totally useless, it's basically 25% more speed and -40s on a vet 3 priest (extra creeping is broken)  while a hummel at vet 3 gets 25% reduced damage (50% when locked down) 30% more damage, 30% more speed and -40s on cooldown, how can u say it doesn't get better vet?

No, read what I said.

I said the priest at vet 0 has the same rate of fire as a locked down hummel.

A priest with vet would get off shells faster compared to a locked down hummel.

So no, hummel does not have better vet.

[Tymathee]

o.O the hummel getes more damage....it can take out emplacements faster...

with 10% more = 220 dmg, with 30% more it's 260 dmg. ugh, oh forget it.

[gamesguy2]

Some numbers,

Both howitzers fire a shot, winds down/up, reloads, and then fires another shell.  Neither have any cooldown.  Lockdown on the hummel reduces its reload to half.

Hummel has 5 second reload, .6 second windup, 1 second winddown.  Therefore it fires once every 5*.5+.6+1=4.1 seconds.

Priest has 2.5 second reload, .3 second windup, 1 second winddown.  Therefore it fires once every 2.5+.3+1=3.8 seconds.

As you can see, they fire at nearly identical speeds, priest being very slightly faster.  At vet 3, the priest would get off a shell every 2.74 seconds, or 34% faster than the hummel, where as the hummel would move a little faster(but still not as fast as the priest) and do 32% more damage.

Both vet is equally good.   Hummel also gets a received damage bonus, and the priest gets another creeping barrage(when they fix it).

[gamesguy2]

o.O the hummel getes more damage....it can take out emplacements faster...

with 10% more = 220 dmg, with 30% more it's 260 dmg. ugh, oh forget it.

And the priest gets six shells.  If you are shooting at static targets, the shell number is very important.   Against static targets priest is innately better than the hummel because it gets six shells compared to four.

Are you getting it now?  Priest has better accuracy, longer range, more shells, moves faster, and cost way less than the hummel.

The only advantage the hummel has over the priest is it does more damage to heavy tanks like the pershing.  That does not make up for its various other deficiencies and its stupidly high cost.

[Tymathee]

meh, like i said, forget it. this is useless. i think they both have their uses but i know for sure that the priest doesn't get super-charge i was just playing with 2 brits who both had priests and they both had to get up close to fire, whether or not that doc choice is in now i dunno but i know they had to get within that 175 units to fire. Using the Hummel myself b4 the reset, it has ridiculous range and if you have a solid front when you bring it in ,it is very deadly i just think that its a different type of use than other artillery.

the only thing I agree with is a price change, especially on fuel but to say that the priest is better, i just dont know, I've seen it miss too much to try and say how accurate it is. You say it has a higher spread, that's not more accurate, that's less accurate if anything. One thing I had to learn witht he hummel in order to get it to hit the target it to fire a bit in front of where I want because it will hit where you pont pretty much, it just over shooots just a bit over that freakin circle.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

The Hummel actually is better.

*It _is_ more accurate, except at very long range. We've run that around a few times. I haven't checked ingame in ages but I'm pretty sure it's true.  Stats-wise, it has 100% accuracy and the Priest does not.

*The Hummel does 300 damage (NOT 200) on a direct hit and penetrates ALL armor.  It's splash penetration is also better than the Priest, making it pretty damn good against tanks. 

*The Hummel does 100 damage at its maximum radius of 6, enough to kill any infantry. It is very deadly.

*The Priest only does enough damage to ensure infantry gibs at a radius of 3.  It does 60 damage (enough to gib volks and severely injure tougher infantry) at a radius of 7.

That said it still might cost too much.

One thing I had to learn witht he hummel in order to get it to hit the target it to fire a bit in front of where I want because it will hit where you pont pretty much, it just over shooots just a bit over that freakin circle.

This is true of all 'accurate' artillery. Veteran howitzers in previous versions of EIR had the same problem.