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Author Topic: Pak38, the Root of All Evil  (Read 39187 times)
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gamesguy2 Offline
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Posts: 2238


« on: March 26, 2009, 04:59:05 am »

We've had some major balance changes the past week, and plenty of argument over it.   But in my opinion all those balance fixes that swing the balance back and forth are only fixing the symptom, not the cause.

What is the cause?  It comes down to one unit, the pak38, specifically its cloak.  Being able to cloak, move around unseen, and fire two shots while remaining cloaked, the pak does the following.

1. Makes 57mm much weaker.   Despite the 50% accuracy, pak sniping is still very much prevalent.   The 57mm is absolutely crucial to the American metagame, due to its handheld AT's weakness(except the RR) and the generally superior axis tanks.

2. Makes emplacements unusable.   The current self repair upon rebuild makes this less of an issue, but as soon as thats fixed the pak will make emplacements worthless again.  Being able to take two shots that do significant damage, wait 10 seconds and do it again.   Makes stationary emplacements pointless.

3. Makes allied mortars much weaker.   One of the major uses for the mortar is against your opponent's AT guns.  The pak, being invisible, removes this use.

4. Makes allied tanks much weaker.   You can draw out a 57mm by moving infantry in first, which lets you pinpoint its position for artillery or flanking.  Or alternatively simply drawing the first shot with infantry and then rushing in with a tank.    This is not possible against the pak.    An infantry screen's job is to draw out AT fire in advance of your armored support, the pak cloak makes this job pointless as it does not fire except on tanks and infantry cannot decloak it unless they get extremely close.


The solution is to simply make the pak decloak after one shot, and unable to cloak while moving, similar to the hetzer cloak.   Then decrease its cost to compensate.  It would still get its first strike bonus of super penetration, more damage, and super accuracy, and being invisible, it remains harder to destroy than the 57mm.   Then, change the accuracy of the 57mm and the 17 pounder to the pak to 50%, just like the vice versa.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 05:13:14 am by gamesguy2 » Logged
AmPM Offline
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Posts: 7978



« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2009, 05:01:20 am »

Howi, Priest, 25lb, Mortars, Jeep, Calli, listening for its clanky noise.

I never have had a problem with them from the Allied side, a couple good arty hits usually clears it and its support out of an area.
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gamesguy2 Offline
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Posts: 2238


« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2009, 05:09:56 am »

Howi, Priest, 25lb, Mortars, Jeep, Calli, listening for its clanky noise.

I never have had a problem with them from the Allied side, a couple good arty hits usually clears it and its support out of an area.

Jeep gets one shotted quite often.   In order to mortar you have to know where it is first.  25lb is extremely short ranged and cannot move.

The only hard counters are howies, priests, and calliopes.   Which is simply wrong.  Do you require a hummel to kill 57mms?  No, you can mortar it or snipe it or simply flank it.  Can't do that to an magical fairy cannon.
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BigDick
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« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2009, 05:14:38 am »

i don't know what to do about the pak38

pak sniping is anoying (from each side) but sometimes they are doing good and sometimes they get completely destroyed by reign of arty

and it is not good to make it only cloakable by not moving because it will be decloaked when turning then (or unable to turn)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 05:16:32 am by BigDick » Logged
gamesguy2 Offline
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Posts: 2238


« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2009, 05:22:54 am »

i don't know what to do about the pak38

pak sniping is anoying (from each side) but sometimes they are doing good and sometimes they get completely destroyed by reign of arty

and it is not good to make it only cloakable by not moving because it will be decloaked when turning then (or unable to turn)

Negative.  The hetzer can turn its gun while remaining cloaked.  Pak with its huge arc of fire can do the same.
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MannfredvonRitter Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 375


« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2009, 05:35:59 am »

i don't know what to do about the pak38

pak sniping is anoying (from each side) but sometimes they are doing good and sometimes they get completely destroyed by reign of arty

and it is not good to make it only cloakable by not moving because it will be decloaked when turning then (or unable to turn)

Negative.  The hetzer can turn its gun while remaining cloaked.  Pak with its huge arc of fire can do the same.

Not sure if hetzer cloak is a good idea, it can barely fire much at all in ambush mode because of its highly limited fire arc and as such many complained the cloak was useless for the hetzer. If the pak could still turn whilst cloaked that wouldn't be so bad.
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BigDick
Guest
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2009, 05:42:44 am »

Negative.  The hetzer can turn its gun while remaining cloaked.  Pak with its huge arc of fire can do the same.

eh i don't talk about its gun, i talk about the whole vehicle

that is what makes hetzer cloak in most cases so useless
when they come from different direction your cloak is useless you need to uncloak to turn and cloaking needs to long that it can use some benefits from it
and while you do all this you wasted probably one shell meanwhile

the pak38 turns slower then an AT57mm have to face more enemy artillery has less health and does less damage (without ambush) all that means that it needs the cloak...that would be all gone if it need to decloak to turn

i agree so far that its not usually needed to move forward while cloaked
but actually in some cases ppl call their artillery when they spot a pak and a 400MP 140 munition unit is gone

when the major concern it the AT gun sniping, we should decrease the accuracy of all AT guns against each other (don't know what to do about the marder)
 its gun while remaining cloaked.  Pak with its huge arc of fire can do the same.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 05:55:29 am by BigDick » Logged
MannfredvonRitter Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 375


« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2009, 06:03:39 am »

Negative.  The hetzer can turn its gun while remaining cloaked.  Pak with its huge arc of fire can do the same.

eh i don't talk about its gun, i talk about the whole vehicle

that is what makes hetzer cloak in most cases so useless
when they come from different direction your cloak is useless you need to uncloak to turn and cloaking needs to long that it can use some benefits from it
and while you do all this you wasted probably one shell meanwhile

the pak38 turns slower then an AT57mm have to face more enemy artillery has less health and does less damage (without ambush) all that means that it needs the cloak...that would be all gone if it need to decloak to turn

i agree so far that its not usually needed to move forward while cloaked
but actually in some cases ppl call their artillery when they spot a pak and a 400MP 140 munition unit is gone

when the major concern it the AT gun sniping, we should decrease the accuracy of all AT guns against each other (don't know what to do about the marder)
 its gun while remaining cloaked.  Pak with its huge arc of fire can do the same.

Lets make locked down marders cloak.
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MistenTH Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 199


« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2009, 06:08:48 am »

Both 57mm and Pak38 have same health - 300.

57mm and Pak38 have virtually same damage. 57mm fires 150 damage every 3.5 seconds, Pak38 115 damage every 2.5 seconds, which is 147.5 damage every 3.5 seconds.

True, right now allied artillery is superior.

And what happened to you bigdick. Your posts have been a lot more reasonable nowadays compared to before.
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Akranadas Offline
Honoured Member
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Posts: 6906


« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2009, 06:10:40 am »

Please don't troll Misten
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MistenTH Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 199


« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2009, 06:20:54 am »

No, I'm serious. Bigdick's posts over the past week have been a lot more balanced than what I usually noticed before. They used to be one-sided, right now he does talk about both sides of an argument as well. I'm really surprised.
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BigDick
Guest
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2009, 06:37:43 am »

Lets make locked down marders cloak.

don't know
actually the marder don't fit into PE play style
all of PE is about movement and attack and offensive but the marder benefits most from lockdown and being used defensively (fireing from behind the front line)

the problem about PE is that they have no AT guns and no tanks (panther but panther is huge costs and popcap) and need much fuel

instead of AT guns they have the marder that is not bad if you look at this unit alone, but it is bad if you look at PE as a whole EiRR faction


And what happened to you bigdick. Your posts have been a lot more reasonable nowadays compared to before.

eh i think people saw my postings and thought hey there is the bad boy lets make some inappropriately comment about him

and before the last patch the balance suggestions i complained about were not in and the people don't felt how it will be when this and that will make it into EiRR

now they have many things people suggested were i complained about

and to the topic...actually i was never a fan of AT guns countering AT guns

in my view of gameplay an AT gun is a hard counter to tanks and should not counter each other
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VariantThirteen Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 116


« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2009, 06:48:18 am »

I have tried to post this four times now. Every time I accidently delete my post before putting it on. I will give an abbreviated version.

Paks are OP right now because riflemen are in too short a supply. Riflemen are the best counter to cloaked paks because they can be used to aggressively patrol without great consequences. Once a pak is located, Amis can wtfpwn it with either superior retard rush infantry (AB or Rangers) or superior arty/offmaps.

If more roflmen were available, more patrols would happen, more paks would be found, and less complaints about the paks would be around.

It would be short sighted and a little simplistic to directly nerf paks - the fact that all their counters are stronger justifies them being stronger too. Also, to make them less cloakable would just make them permenant bait for the shitstorm that is allied fire support, which would have an incredible potential to ruin the game in a single patch.
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Schultz Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 679


« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2009, 06:58:17 am »

Yep, im sorry we killed your emplacements the other day gamesguy, but the cloak in pak is one of the last remnants to hold back emplacement spam and to achive some kind of survivability against those tommy blobs hunting down every support wep.
We had 7 mgs that game, and in the end none were left standing.
This makes evident that even mg spam cannot be a deterent to british infantry, and those wont come alone as arti spam and tanks will follow closely. Cloaked paks are a breeze of fresh air Tongue
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acker Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2053


« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2009, 07:38:58 am »

How the hell do you pinpoint the location of the Pak with its noise?

I've been able to hear the Pak and find its general location when I have nothing better to do than study the FOW, but to the extent that one can drop arty on it...my speakers simply aren't that good, and they work for pretty much everything else.
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Mgallun74 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1478


« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2009, 07:43:09 am »

We've had some major balance changes the past week, and plenty of argument over it.   But in my opinion all those balance fixes that swing the balance back and forth are only fixing the symptom, not the cause.

What is the cause?  It comes down to one unit, the pak38, specifically its cloak.  Being able to cloak, move around unseen, and fire two shots while remaining cloaked, the pak does the following.

1. Makes 57mm much weaker.   Despite the 50% accuracy, pak sniping is still very much prevalent.   The 57mm is absolutely crucial to the American metagame, due to its handheld AT's weakness(except the RR) and the generally superior axis tanks.

2. Makes emplacements unusable.   The current self repair upon rebuild makes this less of an issue, but as soon as thats fixed the pak will make emplacements worthless again.  Being able to take two shots that do significant damage, wait 10 seconds and do it again.   Makes stationary emplacements pointless.

3. Makes allied mortars much weaker.   One of the major uses for the mortar is against your opponent's AT guns.  The pak, being invisible, removes this use.

4. Makes allied tanks much weaker.   You can draw out a 57mm by moving infantry in first, which lets you pinpoint its position for artillery or flanking.  Or alternatively simply drawing the first shot with infantry and then rushing in with a tank.    This is not possible against the pak.    An infantry screen's job is to draw out AT fire in advance of your armored support, the pak cloak makes this job pointless as it does not fire except on tanks and infantry cannot decloak it unless they get extremely close.


The solution is to simply make the pak decloak after one shot, and unable to cloak while moving, similar to the hetzer cloak.   Then decrease its cost to compensate.  It would still get its first strike bonus of super penetration, more damage, and super accuracy, and being invisible, it remains harder to destroy than the 57mm.   Then, change the accuracy of the 57mm and the 17 pounder to the pak to 50%, just like the vice versa.


Here Here X2..

i made a post like this yesterday, and look, another, from somebody who plays both sides...  Shocked
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OrcWarrior Offline
EIR Regular
Posts: 3


« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2009, 07:45:32 am »

LoL so the balance of the pak is based on that devs thinking that you can hear where the pak is and then hit it with the motar?

-Oh man, this beats Comedy Central anyday
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Akranadas Offline
Honoured Member
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Posts: 6906


« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2009, 08:27:12 am »

Err... where did we say that now?
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Dragon2008 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 355



« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2009, 08:53:09 am »

LOL. Does this topic keep coming back everytime it stops. It like a broken CD on loop.
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Tymathee Offline
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Posts: 9741



« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2009, 10:31:00 am »

^ the pak cloaking argument has been going on since the eir days when we could have 30+ riflemen, so having more riflement, so being able to use them as a patrol doesn't change anything. Pak sniping is an annoynace and a really powerful tool. Before the at vs at gun change, it was simply annoying to have your at gun sitting there, in the middle of your infantry and hvae it just get pak sniped by a pak, or even worse an officer supervised pak that'll take it out before it even uncloaks.

Yes you can hear it, yes you can follow the arc of the shot, yes you can decrew it with infantry, but so what.

1. It is very difficult to pinpoint it exactly, you can get on the same "screen" as the pak but then, who knows what's around it?

2. Arc. You can follow it yes, but say you're in a tank, how do you get away from something you dont know which way it is pointing? Heck, you may have just entered the arc, do you go back the other way? or keep going forward hoping to get away from it...

3. infantry, what self respecting wehr commander wont have at least 1 hmg on the field and more times than not, it is near that infernal pak. You try and find it, get a burst from the hmg try to go back and you get pinned...the hmg just makes the pak more powerful, then with the mortars of d00m, even more insane sometimes.

Now i agree, at guns are more survivable now, and i dont really have big issues against pak's anymore (see my battles with cloaked paks that i've won at v at cuz of poor wehr placement) but that doesn't take away the fact that it givse the wehr another clear advantage in that department. Then couple with the fact that you can actually relatively keep firing cloaked if you micro right. Just :smh: I so hate paks...
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"I want proof!"
"I have proof!"
"Whatever, I'm still right"

Dafuq man, don't ask for proof if you'll refuse it if it's not in your favor, logic fallacy for the bloody win.
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