Pak38, the Root of All Evil

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[AmPM]

Many people get angry about everything. It doesn't make it a balance issue or a gameplay issue.

What makes it a gameplay issue or a balance issue are seperate as well. Gameplay should be about keeping the game playing as it was designed. Balance is to make the tools as fair as possible. This does NOT mean mirror balanced units or forces.

One company setup should not and does not need to stand an equal chance vs ANY enemy.

My PE fail vs hardened defenses, I accept this and try to keep it from reaching that point. If it does I just have to rely on nades and MHTs.

[NightRain]

If PAK was 1 shot then decloak what'd be the difference?

It can't snipe things anymore. That is the only difference it gets.

Well move in 1 thing a vehicle, PAK shoots. Retreat that vehicle and spam arty on that spot or fire the pak with all you have, (57mms, priest/calliope/howi whatever artillery piece one has even a mortar can do) then the pak goes kableewah! 400 MP 140 Mun laying in pieces and anti tank support drops low.

Without this 1 Shot decloak thing it'd have a chance to stay hidden and move out of the way if spotted or something. If it wasn't spotted it can stay there and warn the enemy of a precense of an Anti-tank weapon and leaves the enemy commander to think and plan his attack before charging in.

When you think it 57mm only reveals itself because its crew is so eager to fight that it shoots everything that is enemy was it infantry or a tank. This leaves Axis players to complain about ATG sniping which is awfully annoying due to small squad sizes- I've never seen any ally player moaning about PAK sniping...'cause they don't fire at infantry while in cloak

[Two]

If PAK was 1 shot then decloak what'd be the difference?

It can't snipe things anymore. That is the only difference it gets.

Well move in 1 thing a vehicle, PAK shoots. Retreat that vehicle and spam arty on that spot or fire the pak with all you have, (57mms, priest/calliope/howi whatever artillery piece one has even a mortar can do) then the pak goes kableewah! 400 MP 140 Mun laying in pieces and anti tank support drops low.

Without this 1 Shot decloak thing it'd have a chance to stay hidden and move out of the way if spotted or something. If it wasn't spotted it can stay there and warn the enemy of a precense of an Anti-tank weapon and leaves the enemy commander to think and plan his attack before charging in.

When you think it 57mm only reveals itself because its crew is so eager to fight that it shoots everything that is enemy was it infantry or a tank. This leaves Axis players to complain about ATG sniping which is awfully annoying due to small squad sizes- I've never seen any ally player moaning about PAK sniping...'cause they don't fire at infantry while in cloak

And that is all i want.

[Mysthalin]

Pak killing infantry, and 57's sniping infantry is about as much an issue as Pluto obscuring the Sun for us.

[EscforrealityTLS]

Holly crap Pluto is obscuring the sun! Why wasn't I informed! Someone get Hollywood on the horn we've a planet to take out!

[Warlight]

It can't snipe things anymore. That is the only difference it gets.

And that is all i want.

I go away for the weekend and the threed goes on with out me.

Actualy this dosn't change anything.  I can still snipe, it just behaves more like a sniper.  And you'll still bitch, trust me. 

Also, from one shot or two, you stil now where its at.  It just forces you to act.  Honestly are you gouing to let a pack fire two shots, then stop, then repeat and snipe away your emplacements.  No.  So if this happens its just you playing poorly again. 

In a fight, you'll still lose ATG's to Paks, and I'll lose Paks to ATG's.  When it decloaks is not an issue.

If you want rock paper scissors gameplay go enjoy starcraft or C&C.  Nothing about the pak is un-counter able, if you know what to to do, and I know you do. 

But I'm done with this, I trust the mods to not nerf the pak because Relic hasn't nerfed the pak. If anything, buff the jeep and the recon units to better find and kill paks.  And force german players to play with even more combined arms as we already do.

[RikiRude]

the worst part is pluto isn't even a planet anymore!

[EscforrealityTLS]

Jesus Christ what is the solar system coming too, Damn you science, damn you to hell!

[Nanaki]

The problem with the PAK38 vs 57mm is that the 57mm was nerfed by the EIRR way of doing special abilities (can only use AP rounds two times now) while the PAK can still cloak, move about, and use its special ability as many times as it wants. As it is now, the PAK is a vastly superior unit to the 57mm.

[Mysthalin]

Lol, no matter when it decloaks, the pak still loses to the 57? You have to have some epic unluck to miss 5 shots in a row when fighting an ATG...

[Nanaki]

not only miss five shots in a row, get hit in the first 1-2 shots from an ATG.

[DemonicTruism]

The problem with the PAK38 vs 57mm is that the 57mm was nerfed by the EIRR way of doing special abilities (can only use AP rounds two times now) while the PAK can still cloak, move about, and use its special ability as many times as it wants. As it is now, the PAK is a vastly superior unit to the 57mm.

It's not quite this simple. The Pak38 is more effective because it is a pressure weapon, whereas the 57 was always a pure defensive weapon. In actual fact, the Pak seems more OP than it is because Axis lack other pressure weapons. All pressure weapons have a strong potential to be absolutely homo - arty, cally, snipers all are ballsily frustrating. The pak is probably the easiest to counter out of all of these, but doesn't get lumped with them because the 57mm exists as a basis for comparison.

[Nanaki]

So Walking Stukas, Wehr Mortars, and Nebelwerfers are not pressure weapons? Wehr gets a sniper too, and it is every bit as effective as the American sniper, if im not mistaken. Nevermind the FOO arty that Wehr officers get.

PS: Forgot the Hummel and Mortar Halftrack too on the PE side, as well as the roving band of cloaked Stormtroopers with Panzershreks and MP44s.

[BigDick]

So Walking Stukas, Wehr Mortars, and Nebelwerfers are not pressure weapons? Wehr gets a sniper too, and it is every bit as effective as the American sniper, if im not mistaken.

no it misses more often and americans have 50% bigger squads means each kill is 50% less effective
and axis sniper has to fear all these airborne/ranger fireup and heroic charge things

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Why do people persist in judging snipers based on Grenadiers vs Riflemen? What about Volks, or Stormies, or Rangers... or more to the point, Paks and 57s and HMG teams and mortars.

[BigDick]

Why do people persist in judging snipers based on Grenadiers vs Riflemen? What about Volks, or Stormies[, or Rangers... or more to the point, Paks and 57s and HMG teams and mortars.

people using volks for more than recrewing are very rare this this piece of crap weapon called mp40 is almost as expensive as lmg42 and BAR

and crappy assault weapons on more crappy units was always fail....

i never saw mp40 used in EiRR

stormies are 4 men too and rangers 6 men with fireup no one is so retarded to shoot rangers with a sniper (when we consider eaqual popcap used in this engagement)

stormis are the only really effective snipercounter except rushing in with a inf blob and praying to rush not into an hmg

[Two]

It can't snipe things anymore. That is the only difference it gets.

And that is all i want.

I go away for the weekend and the threed goes on with out me.

Actualy this dosn't change anything.  I can still snipe, it just behaves more like a sniper.  And you'll still bitch, trust me. 

Also, from one shot or two, you stil now where its at.  It just forces you to act.  Honestly are you gouing to let a pack fire two shots, then stop, then repeat and snipe away your emplacements.  No.  So if this happens its just you playing poorly again. 

In a fight, you'll still lose ATG's to Paks, and I'll lose Paks to ATG's.  When it decloaks is not an issue.

If you want rock paper scissors gameplay go enjoy starcraft or C&C.  Nothing about the pak is un-counter able, if you know what to to do, and I know you do. 

But I'm done with this, I trust the mods to not nerf the pak because Relic hasn't nerfed the pak. If anything, buff the jeep and the recon units to better find and kill paks.  And force german players to play with even more combined arms as we already do.

It will still snipe things but ill atleast be able to shoot back, even with the sniper you get a chance to shoot it when it fires.

[DemonicTruism]

So Walking Stukas, Wehr Mortars, and Nebelwerfers are not pressure weapons? Wehr gets a sniper too, and it is every bit as effective as the American sniper, if im not mistaken. Nevermind the FOO arty that Wehr officers get.

PS: Forgot the Hummel and Mortar Halftrack too on the PE side, as well as the roving band of cloaked Stormtroopers with Panzershreks and MP44s.

None of those things make effective pressure in a real environment - Wehr sniper gets eaten by the Ami sniper, Axis arty gets munched by pretty much all Allies arty, not to mention the infantry tailor made for killing it.

[Mysthalin]

Good luck chasing down a nebel/stuka with rifles/rangers/airborne. You just won't kill them in time, maybe airborne vs nebel wiht the satchel charge, but who doesn't get an LMG/HMG to cover the nebel?

Wehr sniper does not get eaten by the ami sniper, the odds of either surviving are 50/50. And yeah, good luck killing a stuka with a howitzer/cali. Or actually having enough range to hit a stuka/neb with a 25 pdr.

[DemonicTruism]

Ami sniper is far and away a better countersniper. Allied powerranger infantry rip nebels up, and stukas can be wtfpwnt by AB RR drops.