[CW/WM] LMG42 vs Brit Tommie

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[MistenTH]

I've been noticing that whermacht infantry are having a very hard time vs Brit infantry, and there's probably a whole host of reasons. Don't have time for those right now, but here were my reference sites:

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=183459&highlight=calculator
http://www.coh-stats.com/Zaxis/mgs/
http://www.coh-stats.com/Zaxis/rifles/

But the one that I noticed that probably makes a big difference is this:

http://coh-stats.com/Weapon:MG42_LMG

Check the target tables.

This set of data comes courtesy of Panzer Jaeger sometime ago.

B.A.R.
Initial damage: 7
Infantry damage: x0.75
Infantry accuracy: x1
Riflemen_Elite damage: x0.75
Riflemen_Elite accuracy: x0.75
Soldier damage: x0.4
Soldier accuracy: x0.75

LMG42:
Initial damage: 5
Infantry damage: x0.75
Infantry accuracy: x1
Infantry accuracy moving: x0.75
Riflemen_Elite damage: x0.75
Riflemen_Elite accuracy: x0.75
Soldier damage: x0.75
Soldier accuracy: x1

Bren LMG:
Initial damage: 5
Infantry damage: x0.75
Infantry accuracy: x1
Infantry accuracy moving: x0.75
Riflemen_Elite damage: x0.75
Riflemen_Elite accuracy: x0.75
Soldier damage: x0.5
Soldier accuracy: x0.75

Essentially tommies got a 25% health buff against the LMG42. The +25% hp to tommies and PZGs to compensate change of armour type compensates for the increased damage from the BAR and Bren LMG. But the LMG42 got nerfed.

Yet another minefield of weird relic stats and armour types to plough through that affects balance -.-

[Mysthalin]

Well yeah, now the LMG has to shoot more than it did before at tommies...
Ghm...

[gamesguy2]

By the same token, the armor change made tommies/PGs easier to suppress. 

[sgMisten]

By the same token, the armor change made tommies/PGs easier to suppress. 

http://coh-stats.com/Weapon:MG42

Infantry soldier suppression: 1.25
Infantry suppression: 1.00

And the change is not uniform.

BAR/BrenLMG vs PZGs - increased to compensate
LMG42 vs Tommies - no increase to compensate

It ought to be all of them are increased to compensate or not at all.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

The LMG is in the same boat as the Thompson. It'll just have to deal with it.  

[sgMisten]

The LMG is in the same boat as the Thompson. It'll just have to deal with it.  

Good to point out. Any other guns that are affected?

[gamesguy2]

The LMG is in the same boat as the Thompson. It'll just have to deal with it.  

Good to point out. Any other guns that are affected?

Counting only small arms?

MP44/FG42 has 100% damage and accuracy vs both armor types, thompsons and LMGs has already been mentioned. 

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Lots of guns are affected. Everything from the Grease Gun to the Strafing Run. That's why the change was made... It doesn't make sense for this stuff to disproportionately butcher Tommies/PzGs compared to other weapons.  Or for British/Panzer Elite to take more suppression damage.  (Hell, even Stormtroopers were normalized.)

[sgMisten]

Yea, but right now some of these guns are disproportionately tickling pzgs/tommies :p

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Well, no. The LMG is exactly as effective against Tommies as it is against Riflemen.  Same goes for the Thompson, and the Flamethrower, and every other gun that ignored soldier armor.

[MistenTH]

This comparison is for the stand-and-fire automatic weapons: BAR, LMG42, BrenLMG.

The soldier -> infantry change was to reduce the insane effectiveness of some weapons against soldier armour. This definitely applied to grenades and flamethrowers, but versus automatic weapons? Matter of debate here?

Because right now BAR and BrenLMG (allied weaponry) got buffed against tommies and pzgs, but this was compensated by extra hp.

LMG42 (axis weaponry) compared to previously take longer to kill tommies and pzgs as a result because there was no change in modifier. This can be considered normalising damage, but it also does mean that versus Brits, whermacht doesn't kill them as fast as previously, and this definitely contributes to their toughness.

I haven't used rangers in 004, so I don't know how big an impact this was on it.

Anyway this part is a matter of debate depending on whether we want to consider these automatic weaponry as part of the weapons that sliced through tommies and pzgs too quickly like nades and flames did.

---

But the other major factor is: 2 BARs cost 75 mun and come with suppression fire. 2 BrenLMGs cost 90 mun and come with button. 1 LMG42 costs 75 mun with no extra ability. See this data set from Falaris.

LMG42 dps:
Short: 21 (highest)
Medium: 6.3
Long: 1.8 (Less than a K98, the wepaon it replaces.).

Bren dps:
Short: 12
Medium: 5.2
Long: 2.1

BAR dps:
Short: 17.8
Medium: 7 (highest)
Long: 2.5 (highest)

From here you'd notice 1 LMG doesn't outdps 1 BAR and Bren by that much for most ranges, but costs a lot more. The exception is at short range versus the BrenLMG, where 1 LMG42 does deal the DPS of 2 BrenLMGs. But for the BAR and other ranges for Bren, no big difference.

For comparison, the close-in assault weapons deal around 20+ DPS as well (1 gun, not a set of 4).

We remember the old EiR LMG42 being very powerful, but zeal and ferocity was in, then. They are not present, yet. Hmm...they will be in, eventually, eh. (Hmm ponder, can we really balance without doctrines?)

So why I started this thread: Does this cause an issue with Wehrmacht versus British in terms of infantry combat? [LMG42 not pulling its weight versus tommies]

[BigDick]

But when we trust some people then there are huge axis shrek blobs running around the map killing everything
that would mean lmg42 are to effective or to cheap

but seriously it was always known that BAR are very effective for its costs (especially with suppression) and the fact that one upgrade give 2 BAR

since 004 they are even more effective because they get 25% more accuracy and almost doubled damage against PE infantry now

the bren lmg was always very useful (2 lmg per upgrade and the function to completely disable tanks for some time)

the lmg42 got nerfed right, and this and the fact that there are so many blobs running around leads probably why most people play Blitz now
give their infantry these very expensive assault nades instead of lmg42 and do not use  armor except stuh (piat blobs, 17 pounder, bren buttoning...)

[AmPM]

Because removing Soldier Armor was a mistake and screws things up more than it fixes?

It is fair that certain weapons are more effective and others less so.

Again, factions do not need to be mirrors to be balanced.

I look forward to PE HMGs and support weapons as well as Tommy mobile support weapons. Then EIR will be truly dead and we can just call it OMG v2.

[Tymathee]

^ lol

lmg's are fine the way they are. They might not do as much damage, but they are what they are, a mini portable lmg that can suppress. The lmg starts to suppress faster the more suppressing weapons are around. So if you have 2 or 3 squads with lmgs, you'll suppress like an ami .30 cal, not so with bars and brens. You can stick an lmg in a house and be really deadly, not so much so with bars and brens, although they have their own perks, bars with suppression fire and brens with button.

I say no change...i think its good where it is now, bars and lmgs at 75, brens at 90 (although they're good vs tanks, they're worse than bars and lmgs at fighting inf)

[BigDick]

You can stick an lmg in a house and be really deadly, not so much so with bars and brens, although they have their own perks, bars with suppression fire and brens with button.

eh BAR rifleman in buildings are very deadly high damage output and great protection
especially since they can use suppression fire from buildings

I say no change...i think its good where it is now, bars and lmgs at 75, brens at 90 (although they're good vs tanks, they're worse than bars and lmgs at fighting inf)

eh no

1xLMG42=75muni:
Initial damage: 5
Infantry damage: x0.75
Infantry accuracy: x1
Infantry accuracy moving: x0.75
Riflemen_Elite damage: x0.75
Riflemen_Elite accuracy: x0.75

2xBren LMG=90mun:
Initial damage: 10
Infantry damage: x0.75
Infantry accuracy: x1
Infantry accuracy moving: x0.75
Riflemen_Elite damage: x0.75
Riflemen_Elite accuracy: x0.75

[Bubz]

I wouldn't buy bars if it weren't for the suppression, rifles are so weak that it would be a waste of munitions.

[CafeMilani]

it does like 0 damage to tommies in yellow cover at mid range

[BigDick]

I wouldn't buy bars if it weren't for the suppression, rifles are so weak that it would be a waste of munitions.

eh a riflesquad has more health then a grenadier squad

[AmPM]

They are fine as is. 2x in a Squad makes it really nasty.

[CafeMilani]

They are fine as is. 2x in a Squad makes it really nasty.

that really costly and this squad cant defend itself like a brentommie squad can..
they should make lmgs some more effective against timmies, especially in cover