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[AmPM]

You mean like all other cloaked units? SAY IT ISN'T SO! 

[Malevolence]

I have never had a problem with PaKs being magically immune to taking damage. I play Brits, I played Americans (and will probably go back to playing them again soon), and I have not had any problems except with PaK getting free shots on me. One free shot I can deal with, two or three is a bit crazy.

Set pak to one shot while cloaked and I see absolutely no problem.

[Akranadas]

You mean like all other cloaked units? SAY IT ISN'T SO! 

Personally, I would prefer all 'magic' toggle able camo removed from the game and replaced with Fallschimjager style ambush cover. It just seems so stupid that troops can seemly hide right in front of you.

[AmPM]

Well, since this game has no realistic line of sight, the options for cover tactics are limited to what the game engine can provide. Cloaking helps with that and is a needed part of the game as annoying as it is.

Removing it fundamentally removes a good chunk of the tactics and strategy. If we had realistic LoS it wouldn't be an issue and you could ambush and flank without it.

[pernik]

Magic school's for Axis ONLY. What a shame

[Tymathee]

Didn't the pak have its cloak while moving ability taken away?

[AmPM]

Magic school's for Axis ONLY. What a shame

Yea, except for snipers, oh and the "Ninja VANISH!!" smoke that Commando's all can use. While we're on the subject, someone take away the combat drugs that AB and Rangers use to Fireup.

[gamesguy2]

ok 1 bonus shot i agree but remember, it does only 115 dmg (ATGun 150dmg)
if u "scout" with a pak u mean let me go 10 metres, otherwise they will see it
thats not scouting, u may see a hmg but u would also see it when moving ur troops forward for a look

The pak has a much faster rate of fire compared to the 57mm, and actually outdps the 57mm.   

If you can't live with a 57mm that does more damage and cloak, it just goes to show how much certain wehr players have come to rely on the crutch of being able to reposition while invisible.

You also "scout" with a pak by putting it like 10 meters infront of your MG42.  Now you can see 55ish range in front of the MG, thus allowing you to scout.   When was the last time you saw a 57mm sitting 10 meters in front of a 30cal?

[wildsolus]

"real men play axis"


allies are OP!1!1

[31stPzGren]

Honestly speaking. Stop balancing for nubs. Any decent player here in EiR knows better than to RUSH DOWN THE ROAD with their freaking shermans or cromwells. If they do that they deserve to get their tanks blown up.

I never had a problem with pak guns. Its so simple to deal with. Learn to flank, learn to hide your forces before your assault, learn to do some reconnaissance, learn to scout. Once the first shot is fired, the game is up for the pak. People can SEE where the shot originated from... as if a shaped charge creates a smoke trail.

With artillery and offmaps in, people can just click on the pak, killing it effectively. This is simply bending over backwards for noobs who don't know how to deal with paks.

Re positioning the weapons, in stealth mode or not in stealth, will still generate the same issue. Every smart player will reposition his defence after driving back the enemy. Taking away the move while cloaked, and cloaking on the road (or negative cover) is just silly.

Are you telling me, that you are moving towards realism here? That paks cannot "cloak" on the road or in "exposed" areas? The pak is fundamentally different from the american ATG to take the entire faction into consideration, the capabilities of their units, the effect of their combined arms with each other. We can talk about it being naturally easier to recrew with rifles than with volksgrenadiers.

What is with all these nonsense about an "invisible" scout moving forward to check things out anyway? Anything should be a legitimate tactic. While we are at this, why don't we ban jeeps and motorbikes from blocking super heavy tanks? Why don't we make an offence to 'ungarrison' a building when being hit by assault nades? Why don't we call jeep/motorbike/light vehicle blocking infantry movement as gimmcky and game breaking? Why don't we stop the M10 from crushing infantry? Which arguably its more effective at than shooting with its main gun.

If the allied players LEARN to scout or patrol regularly with rifles, engineers, to stagger their forces in a loose line, to hide tanks in the back as mobile reserve, to constantly lay barbed wire etc. We will not have this bullshit. Seriously, learn to play, whoever that complained the cloaked pak was too powerful.

[Tymathee]

Magic school's for Axis ONLY. What a shame

Yea, except for snipers, oh and the "Ninja VANISH!!" smoke that Commando's all can use. While we're on the subject, someone take away the combat drugs that AB and Rangers use to Fireup.

you mean running with no fear?  uh, nah. sorry thats pretty realistic. Just read the story about the one airborne that got across the causeway he fired up the whole time.

[AmPM]

Read the many stories of infantry sneaking up on others that were completely unaware of them.

[NightRain]

I agree with PzGren in this case.

L2P

Magical 3 letters that form Learn To Play. In my opinnion all the pak sniping and stuff, its just funny. After trying realistic games just like Men of War...eh ever tried a PAK that shoots farer than a mortar with good infantry and anti tank cabilities? Its just insane...however it has its own drawback. No cloak, so tanks usually one shoot them in their hide outs.

Anyway back to the topic.

Keeping tanks behind and scouting is important. Who wants to rush their tanks into open? I wouldn't send a tank to a grounds of unknown. Scouting with a tank is idiotic, scouting with infantry is the right way to go. Even if a jeep likes to blow off from the 1 shot made by the PAK doesn't make the vehicle any useless, motorcycle has harder time imo but that's not the point.

Usually Europe in Ruins in game is a Solid Line and both sides wait "Who charges first?!" usually Allies sit back and bomb axis till they are forced to attack or lose all their stuff to bombardments. as has been said earlier several times. Without the Cloak PAK dies . Offmap, FOO and rushes toward it...for 57mm. They usually face the alike situations however, rushing toward it is no option with Wehrmacht due to lack of fire up abilities like the allies heavy infantry (Brits get Heroic Charge and Smoke Rounds for Commandos). PE has Sprint ability however its for vet 2 infantry...who wants to waste a vet 2 infantry section just to decrew a anti tank gun that gets recrewed immidiately afterwards? You gain only time, nothing more.

Idk about the new pak nerf. Unable to move while cloaked, sure it is realistic but it doesn't suit for Company of Heroes gameplay. Like Stormtroopers, invisible men who walk on a open ground "Ey I can not be seen!" Its not realistic but Company of Heroes isn't realism its only about Gameplay. If we want realism try games that gives you it, Theater of War and so on. CoH is a game based on stats, each unit does something like that, counter for everything type of a thingy. Eh yah...I always kept PAK as a fine tool to stop a armored spam attack...the cloak may save it like 75% of the time...but without the cloak, its like 10% chance of survive, a rough guess but aye I hope ya get my point

[Akranadas]

You Wehrmacht fan boys make wish we didn't have a balance discussion forum.

Saying "LRN2PLAYALLIEDNOOBS" is not a valid response to this change, nor is it a valid argument on these forums.

Calling this Pak change a "giant nerf" to Wehrmacht's Anti-Tank Capabilities is a blatant lie, so is accusing the EIR development team for catering for the lowest common denominator of player types. The Pak change has done nothing to the damage output, it hasn't change it's armour, it hasn't change it's hit points, all it has changed is how the cloak system works (which will be further tuned next patch). Your Pak gun still can cloak, it still gets to fire 3 rounds from cloak before revealing itself and it most most certainly still gets the first strike bonus.

All that was change was the ability to move while in cloak. That is it; and we will be further improving it in the next patch to give you back some freedom regarding the pak gun. The cloak in Company of Heroes is supposed to be used defensively for ambushing enemy armour. However, in EIR players were using them aggressively to hunt enemy armour and artillery weapons, which resulted in frustration in a lot of Allied players (we saw a drop of nearly 25% of American accounts being deleted every week and many players giving up on the mod with one of the main reason being; Paks) as it could move forward, pop one or two shots from its range and move back to your defensive line without the threat of being spotted before or after the attack.

American players can't enjoy that kind of safely when it comes to using their 57mm's aggressively, as you will always see them moving up to attack your tanks and they are much easier to counter, either through normal infantry or your far superior mortars and HMGs. The reasoning behind this change is while, High Skilled players (a minority) know how to deal with Ninjapak guns, the average player don't understand how to counter these ninjapaks. Throwing infantry and tanks at one Pak gun results in a lot of wasted units, all to counter one unit.

The change has reinstated that Pak guns camouflage should be used for setting up ambushes on enemy armour, luring enemy armour into falsely AT lacking lines and generally dealing moderately consistent anti-tank damage as Wehrmacht's middle Anti-Tank weapon.

Most of the criticism I see from this change is hesitation to change and a overreaction to what the exact change is.

[Mysthalin]

I wonder just how many times did you actualy NEED fire up to take out a 57 mm? The 30 cal suppresses you? I didn't think it was capable of doing it at all . BARs? Well, congrats, you just got managed to lose to a 200 MP 80 MU infantry squad that rarely even comes in conjunction with 57 mms - it's usualy the same costing unit that looks the exact same, but has a different upgrade. Yes, you guessed it, a sticky.

Enough with the bullshit of "115 dmg for pak, 150 for 57" it's FLAWED!
The pak can shoot around 50 percent faster than a 57 mm, so stop being selective when discussing balance. With the cloak, the pak has 144 damage(25 percent more), meaning it does almost as much damage per shot with a faster firerate and 1000 percent penetration. If you want to pull down the cost of the pak to the 57 mm, it actualy makes quite a lot of sence to get free AP rounds - a 25 percent damage, 400 percent penetration increase. Not to mention how awesome cloak is at helping the pak survive.
Quick recap, for people like aloha that can't get it the first time :

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\       PAK            57
Damage per shot       115            150
Time between shots   3.7             5.3
DPS                        31.08         28.30
Dmg in ~11.1 secs     345            300
DPS with bonus         38.85        35.375
Penetration bonus     1000%         400%

AP rounds gets 2 shots off at best, 2 uses = 4 shots total.
PAK cloak currently gives all 3 cloaked shots the bonus.

[Bubz]

While you're on it akra, can you reduce atgun vs atgun even more while pak is camouflaged? 

[CafeMilani]

You Wehrmacht fan boys make wish we didn't have a balance discussion forum.

Saying "LRN2PLAYALLIEDNOOBS" is not a valid response to this change, nor is it a valid argument on these forums.

Calling this Pak change a "giant nerf" to Wehrmacht's Anti-Tank Capabilities is a blatant lie, so is accusing the EIR development team for catering for the lowest common denominator of player types. The Pak change has done nothing to the damage output, it hasn't change it's armour, it hasn't change it's hit points, all it has changed is how the cloak system works (which will be further tuned next patch). Your Pak gun still can cloak, it still gets to fire 3 rounds from cloak before revealing itself and it most most certainly still gets the first strike bonus.

All that was change was the ability to move while in cloak. That is it; and we will be further improving it in the next patch to give you back some freedom regarding the pak gun. The cloak in Company of Heroes is supposed to be used defensively for ambushing enemy armour. However, in EIR players were using them aggressively to hunt enemy armour and artillery weapons, which resulted in frustration in a lot of Allied players (we saw a drop of nearly 25% of American accounts being deleted every week and many players giving up on the mod with one of the main reason being; Paks) as it could move forward, pop one or two shots from its range and move back to your defensive line without the threat of being spotted before or after the attack.

American players can't enjoy that kind of safely when it comes to using their 57mm's aggressively, as you will always see them moving up to attack your tanks and they are much easier to counter, either through normal infantry or your far superior mortars and HMGs. The reasoning behind this change is while, High Skilled players (a minority) know how to deal with Ninjapak guns, the average player don't understand how to counter these ninjapaks. Throwing infantry and tanks at one Pak gun results in a lot of wasted units, all to counter one unit.

The change has reinstated that Pak guns camouflage should be used for setting up ambushes on enemy armour, luring enemy armour into falsely AT lacking lines and generally dealing moderately consistent anti-tank damage as Wehrmacht's middle Anti-Tank weapon.

Most of the criticism I see from this change is hesitation to change and a overreaction to what the exact change is.

i dont need to read this entire post to say:

1. but ur an allied fan boy 
2. when allied noobs cant handle paks with their insanely amount of artillery, l2p. i play allies and i win, even much easier since pak got changed.
3. i say it again and again: theres a REASON why paks have a cloak ability; this reason is so simple but obviously hard to understand: allied arty.

[31stPzGren]

You Wehrmacht fan boys make wish we didn't have a balance discussion forum.

Saying "LRN2PLAYALLIEDNOOBS" is not a valid response to this change, nor is it a valid argument on these forums.

Some balance arguments and decisions made was so laughable that I seriously wondered to whom did the change catered to. What about the fiasco about the rifles costing 200MP and volks costing 195MP as being perfectly justifiable because volks were being spammed alot? As if the rifles weren't spammed at all. Some things really stretch the limit of creativity and liberal interpretation.

Calling this Pak change a "giant nerf" to Wehrmacht's Anti-Tank Capabilities is a blatant lie, so is accusing the EIR development team for catering for the lowest common denominator of player types. The Pak change has done nothing to the damage output, it hasn't change it's armour, it hasn't change it's hit points, all it has changed is how the cloak system works (which will be further tuned next patch). Your Pak gun still can cloak, it still gets to fire 3 rounds from cloak before revealing itself and it most most certainly still gets the first strike bonus.

I am no longer allowed the tactical option of setting up an aggressive ambush against armour players?

All that was change was the ability to move while in cloak. That is it; and we will be further improving it in the next patch to give you back some freedom regarding the pak gun. The cloak in Company of Heroes is supposed to be used defensively for ambushing enemy armour. However, in EIR players were using them aggressively to hunt enemy armour and artillery weapons, which resulted in frustration in a lot of Allied players (we saw a drop of nearly 25% of American accounts being deleted every week and many players giving up on the mod with one of the main reason being; Paks) as it could move forward, pop one or two shots from its range and move back to your defensive line without the threat of being spotted before or after the attack.

Anyone, who stupidly parks their tanks or artillery in the front lines deserve to get it destroyed. Anyone who is unable to hold their FRONT LINE deserves to get their artillery wiped in a massive push. Anyone who just quits EiR because they couldn't handle a single pak deserves to leave. Frankly speaking, if they don't have the tactical depth to be able to deal with just cloaked paks, when you've got offmaps, elite infantry, calliope and what not... I don't know how they are going to be even able to deal with the gameplay at higher levels.

American players can't enjoy that kind of safely when it comes to using their 57mm's aggressively, as you will always see them moving up to attack your tanks and they are much easier to counter, either through normal infantry or your far superior mortars and HMGs. The reasoning behind this change is while, High Skilled players (a minority) know how to deal with Ninjapak guns, the average player don't understand how to counter these ninjapaks. Throwing infantry and tanks at one Pak gun results in a lot of wasted units, all to counter one unit.

This argument is invalid, because the pak is MORE EXPENSIVE than the ATG. If the pak is too "powerful", make it more expensive. I've got snipers racking up 30++ kills on an average per game, way more than its cost. Does that mean we need to nerf snipers?

Similarly, high skilled players are the ones who are using these "ninjapaks" aggressively (I guess) to move away, attack tanks and such. Even if you take out these "ninjapaks" they would still owned the relatively average player.

If the average player doesn't understand how to counter them, EDUCATE them. Throwing infantry and tanks at well defended artillery positions also results in a lot of futility for the wehr player. What do we do about the calliope and offmap artys previously present? We learnt NOT TO BLOB.

Not knowing the fundamentals of vCoH/EiR metagame/game mechanics is no excuse for poor play.

The change has reinstated that Pak guns camouflage should be used for setting up ambushes on enemy armour, luring enemy armour into falsely AT lacking lines and generally dealing moderately consistent anti-tank damage as Wehrmacht's middle Anti-Tank weapon.

Most of the criticism I see from this change is hesitation to change and a overreaction to what the exact change is.

Try luring a good player's tank, conveniently parked behind into an ambush. You argument falls awfully short whenever the "good player" comes into the equation.

What I'm really driving at
Now that the Pak has its move while cloak removed. I like a price decrease. When MP40s got buffed in relic patch it became ridiculously overpriced on such a weak platform.

[CafeMilani]

change it back, it still costs much more than an ATGun.
they also increased the price of schrecks, what will u do next?

btw, whose idea was it to change pak?

[Akranadas]

Not knowing the fundamentals of vCoH/EiR metagame/game mechanics is no excuse for poor play.

Meta-Game just changed. Deal with it.