Today and Yesterday

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[Dragon2008]

They did have a chance but the turing point in the pacific theatre was the battle of midway which the japs lost 4 carriers while the US only lost 1 and put the war in the US favour.

[salan]

While we bitch and whine about units, and call each other names.. lets not forgot the significance of the past few days....  and remember ALL that have fallen for really nothing.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/German_instrument_of_surrender2.jpg

I would prefer to believe my Grandad who died liberating Belgium didn't die for nothing; that those people (civilians) who survived due to a shortened occupation of their homeland would be seen as more then nothing.

We of Canada sacrificed everything for people we did not know.

and that will always be more then nothing.

[perfil02]

They did have a chance but the turing point in the pacific theatre was the battle of midway which the japs lost 4 carriers while the US only lost 1 and put the war in the US favour.

Midway just accelerated the inevitable result, just compare the number of carriers of USA and Japan in 1944,1945.

[Baine]

While we bitch and whine about units, and call each other names.. lets not forgot the significance of the past few days....  and remember ALL that have fallen for really nothing.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/German_instrument_of_surrender2.jpg

I would prefer to believe my Grandad who died liberating Belgium didn't die for nothing; that those people (civilians) who survived due to a shortened occupation of their homeland would be seen as more then nothing.

We of Canada sacrificed everything for people we did not know.

and that will always be more then nothing.

What should i say then, one of my grandads brothers died in stalingrad, while he made it out alive, was taken prisoner for several years in siberia and then eventually returned.

What did he go through for.

[AmPM]

Japan had no chance of winning in the Pacific after Pearl Harbor, even Admiral Yamato knew that and advised against attacking the US (we wouldn't have even gotten involved if they hadn't, and then Nev would be speaking Japanese and watching more hentai than he already does).

Either way, soldiers of all nations made sacrifices for their countries, and should be recognized and remembered for that. Even if you do not agree with them.

Remember, the average soldier is not doing anything for political reasons, they do it to support their country and people. Political reasons are left up to Generals and Politicians (if there is a difference).

[Malevolence]

I think by "nothing" he was referring to the pointless massacre of war in general - that nothing really changed in the end except many were dead and over what? Some mad man's desire to grab some land borders on a map? Stupid reasons to start it, but good reason to end it, and that's what the allies fought for.

Japan had no chance of winning in the Pacific after Pearl Harbor, even Admiral Yamato knew that and advised against attacking the US (we wouldn't have even gotten involved if they hadn't, and then Nev would be speaking Japanese and watching more hentai than he already does).

Actually the idea was that if they pulled Pearl off right it would buy them enough time to sue for favorable conditions after stealing a lot of US stuff, maybe even win. In a straight fight Japan was forked, but after Pearl Harbor it was a bit less certain. Who knows, maybe if the carriers had been in dock the US may have lost the war after all in the Pacific. (Granted, mainland US was never really threatened - there's no way the Japanese could have invaded it, but even so...)

[perfil02]

Actually the idea was that if they pulled Pearl off right it would buy them enough time to sue for favorable conditions after stealing a lot of US stuff, maybe even win. In a straight fight Japan was forked, but after Pearl Harbor it was a bit less certain. Who knows, maybe if the carriers had been in dock the US may have lost the war after all in the Pacific. (Granted, mainland US was never really threatened - there's no way the Japanese could have invaded it, but even so...)

USA forced Japan to decide between, war or a stop to their expansionism. Japan decided to try a war against USA, they were hoping that USA would stop their embargo if they were able to launch a decisive strike against USA  because "anti-interventionism/anti-beligerant" were common issues on the USA's population of the 30's.
But Roosevelt, knew what was he doing, and the atack on Pearl Harbor allowed him to declare war to the axis, and use all the USA's war potentiall the cost was just some old battleships .In my opinion since that moment, war was lost for the axis.

[Bubz]

Remember, the average soldier is not doing anything for political reasons, they do it to support their country and people. Political reasons are left up to Generals and Politicians (if there is a difference).

I don't agree, the people of a country have mind to think of what their chiefs say. That's why partisans fought. I can hardly understand why germany and its people had not any historical partisan movement. That's the greatest shame of the german history according to me.

[Baine]

I don't agree, the people of a country have mind to think of what their chiefs say. That's why partisans fought. I can hardly understand why germany and its people had not any historical partisan movement. That's the greatest shame of the german history according to me.

You Sir, have obviously no clue of german history.

[thaelmann]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance

Between 1933 and 1945 more than 3 million Germans had been in concentration camps or prison for political reasons, and approximately 77,000 Germans were killed for one or another form of resistance.

[CafeMilani]

haha

[Guderian]

I don't agree, the people of a country have mind to think of what their chiefs say. That's why partisans fought. I can hardly understand why germany and its people had not any historical partisan movement. That's the greatest shame of the german history according to me.

Even if the did not have. Why is it a shame? Just cause your born in Germany does it give you those obligations? This whole ''nationalism'' shit is starting to get to me. We are just randomly born here and there.

[AmPM]

Even Partisans fight for what they think is best for their country and people.

Now wars are fought, at least by Western nations, for different reasons, usually money, and soldiers join for pay and education.

[acker]

I honor the men and women who died to end Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. I greatly disapprove of the men and women who died to protect said countries. And I'm saddened that humans haven't learned ANYTHING from World War II.

That is all.

[perfil02]

I forgive everyone who had to kill just to survive during a war.
Everything else done during the war, was a crime.

[acker]

Where have I heard that logic before...

[Bubz]

The brother of my granddad (who still lives today) took part in a group who went to germany to work, forced by the nazis (he was from svizra -Switzerland-), and there he joined a resistance group, but it was very small and he felt disgusted by the common thoughts of the german folk during hitler's totalitarism because it was so hard to recruit members for the organization, simply they weren't disposed to give their lives to oppose the nazists, while when he was in italy, there were more people willing to fight for liberty. He was imprisoned but escaped and reached france where he was able to hide untill allies liberated it in late 1944. There was no real official partisan movement like in other countries.

[acker]

...Well, it depends, I guess. For political prisoners, ethnic minorities, and other people attacked by Nazi Germany, they had a bone to pick, and definitely were German...but not Nazi German. So most of those imprisoned or thrown into the camps don't fit in this category, most of them are victims of Hitler's paranoia/bias rather than true dissidents.

If talking about Nazi Germans, I'd say that the only major, organized resistance group to Nazi Germany would have been elements within the German Military (nearly all of the German civilians looked away from German atrocities, or were unaware of them). The German military was fully prepared to oust Hitler from power during the Czech/Austrian incident if Hitler went too far, but largely ignored Hitler during the early years of the war, while Germany was winning. When Germany started to lose, assassination attempts went up pretty quickly. Even Speer tried to off Hitler, I think...

I'd say that, for Nazi Germans, people who were unsuppressed by the Nazi German government, there were precious few groups based upon the immorality of the German government (the White Rose is probably the most famous one, and had less than 20 members). For the simple fact that Germany was losing...the other group was more powerful, if still pretty damned small considering the monstrosity that Nazi Germany was.

But, by and large, people who were unsuppressed didn't complain about the Nazi German government, if that's what you are trying to say. It's a indoctrination/brainwashing/apathy sort of thing. Like a couple other countries around the world today...

People STILL imitate whoever looks powerful, whoever has the shiniest uniform, with the flimsiest justifications toward what that power stands for, and why they are copying it. So I'm guessing that it's a human trait.

[Bubz]

That was exactly what I was trying to say.

[Guderian]

...Well, it depends, I guess. For political prisoners, ethnic minorities, and other people attacked by Nazi Germany, they had a bone to pick, and definitely were German...but not Nazi German. So most of those imprisoned or thrown into the camps don't fit in this category, most of them are victims of Hitler's paranoia/bias rather than true dissidents.

If talking about Nazi Germans, I'd say that the only major, organized resistance group to Nazi Germany would have been elements within the German Military (nearly all of the German civilians looked away from German atrocities, or were unaware of them). The German military was fully prepared to oust Hitler from power during the Czech/Austrian incident if Hitler went too far, but largely ignored Hitler during the early years of the war, while Germany was winning. When Germany started to lose, assassination attempts went up pretty quickly. Even Speer tried to off Hitler, I think...

I'd say that, for Nazi Germans, people who were unsuppressed by the Nazi German government, there were precious few groups based upon the immorality of the German government (the White Rose is probably the most famous one, and had less than 20 members). For the simple fact that Germany was losing...the other group was more powerful, if still pretty damned small considering the monstrosity that Nazi Germany was.

But, by and large, people who were unsuppressed didn't complain about the Nazi German government, if that's what you are trying to say. It's a indoctrination/brainwashing/apathy sort of thing. Like a couple other countries around the world today...

People STILL imitate whoever looks powerful, whoever has the shiniest uniform, with the flimsiest justifications toward what that power stands for, and why they are copying it. So I'm guessing that it's a human trait.

 That is what have made humans so great. We always aspire to be greater.
Monkey see monkey do.

Man.... if you look raw and biological at humans, we are pretty nasty..... very pretty nasty. Just em laws holding us back.