[WM][PE] Flak 88

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[Latios418]

One of us is speaking from experience while the other is doom crying out of despair...

I love how you assume things about me. I've had quite a bit of experience with the Flak36 in .006, both with it in a Luftwaffe and then Defensive companie, and against it when playing US.

2-3 halftracks (and/or assorted light vehicles) with 2-3 flame engineer squads is a brilliant tactic to decrew a flak 88, even one that is well defended by mg's/flakvering.

And here you go again ignoring the support. First halftrack will be downed at 80+m. Second and especially third halftracks will be significantly closer. Any sort of anti-infantry vehicle on the field will rip the flamers quickly, whether it be Pumas, Armoured Cars, Ostwinds, or Wirbelwinds (especially Wirbelwinds, as they will nearly instantly suppress the engineer due to no cover and Engineer's weak suppression resistance). If any support manages a 'Explode into flames' critical around when the Engineers are disembarking, the entire squad is going to go kaput. A nice mortar hit as they're disembarking will be equally fatal. Even then; at best you succeed in decrewing the Flak36 and killing a MG/Flak38 (tbfh they would probably suppress your engineers quickly anyways), maybe recrewing it, for:

630 Manpower + cost of 3 halftracks (don't remember it)
200 munitions
60fu
24 pop

(This gives you three halftracks, one for decoy to take the first shot, four engineers with flamers, and a rifle squad).

Now, the 88 can easily be recrewed by them. If you take it, it's not going to do much except maybe kill an armoured car that already shredded your flamers. You'll have penetrated into their territory on a suicide offensive to take it out and recrew it, where they can quickly use their mortars that should already be in the area to get you off of it, or simply rush it with their recrew infantry that could easily handle the remainder two riflemen and the flak36 re-crew. The halftrack and engineers would very, very likely all be dead or retreated. The Flak36 could easily kill the 3 halftracks in the time it would take to drive up, unload and kill it. Several engineers from one halftrack would die from transport death penalty, unless you dropp them off 3/4ths of the way there or so. Engineers are especially fragile and easy to suppress with suppression weapons, so I can't imagine them living long enough to do more than decrew the flak36 and kill the flak38. Any remainder engineers would retreat or die to mortars due to being suppressed, or simply the recrew squad.

Now, with teammates involved in everything becomes much more complex, but a coordinated assault could be countered with a coordinated defense.

[Latios418]

Wait a moment, this topic have theory, that alone 88 that costs 8 pop is hard to destroy, but to make this hard to destroy you need something called support.

MG+mortar+pak+sniper
3+4+4+7
Wow 26 pop including 88 that's not move

For PE
Assault grens/falls+inf ht+mht+cammo ketten+marder/at ht (if someone haven't enough pop)
4+6+4+1+6/3+8 (88)
29-26 pop to cover it from enemy trying to kill it

Ignoring the fact you have some absolutely redundant crap for your support, what's wrong with a pop cost? Here's some (more effective) builds under 25 pop:

For Wehr:
Flak 36 (8 pop)
Mortar (4 pop)
Volksgrenadier or regular grenadier, doesn't matter (5 pop)
MG42 (3 pop)
Bike (2 pop)

There's 23 pop that locks down the entire width of the map when properly placed (on most but not all 2v2 maps ofc), as well as a large chunk of the length of it. I don't see ANYTHING wrong with that. That 23 pop will serve better than any other number of defensive pop you could use. Add a puma once you have enough pop (because you're going to be getting more pop than the enemy), and whatever the hell else you want after that.

For PE:
Flak 36 (8 pop)
Flak 38 (4 pop)
Mortar Halftrack (6 pop)
Luftwaffe (5 pop)
Ketten/Schwimm (2/3 pop)

25/26 pop, better performance than the Wehr build due to fully mobile mortar and Flakvierling goodness, at the cost of 2/3 more pop.

[TheWindCriesMary]

 Everything you have said here is based on what you think will happen. "X will happen when I try to do this, and then X will lead to Z and Z to Q". It's hearsay and conjecture, building  your own conclusions upon your other previous conclusions and calling it logic. But thats not how it works. Also, you have the distinct misfortune of arguing with someone who has seen the strategy work over and over and over again.
 

 Another problem with your argument is that you are trying to argue in a vacuum universe where the flak is the only front that exists in the entire battle. If you had reread my post above, you would have noticed this important distinction:

 This game is about being creative and about hitting your opponenets where they least expect it with the units and strategies that they least expect. I can garuntee you, when I have one flank or area "locked" with my flak 88 and it's 1 or 2 support units, i am most likely focusing my attention elsewhere in trying to help my ally 90% of the time. That can be a strength, but a smart opponent can and often does make that a weakness to exploit.
-Wind

 Of all the parts of my post not to read, this was the most critical.  A flak can cover a big chunk of the map, no doubt, but that cover (like I said above) often brings with it a false sense of security. A flak is a potent fixed weapon, but it is immobile and because it needs to be supported (a point you seem to really want to make), it also is a pop sink. At the very least, your talking about 11-15 pop (on a very conservatively estimate that also includes the 8 pop of the flak) defense that cannot move. Therefore, if you and your partner both hit the opposing side of the map you will put the flak owners partner in a precarious position. Time and time again ive sent the remainder of my pop to help my allies's side, only to look back and see a half track rush overrun my flak which had been left with a skeleton defense.

 If your sole objective is to kill a flak position, and you keep rushing it, then yes you are going to see an obscene amount of enemy forces begin to build up around it. But once the enemy becomes more and more static with his defenses, the more vulnerable the flanks around that defense become.

 Locked down on Nuenen by a flak on the left side? Do a combined offensive on the right with your partner. If territory were equal, it would be your 50 pop vs your enemies 39 (assuming they only left 11 pop including the flak to defend the opposite side). Should that fail, or should you notice your opponents moving most of their forces to counter you, that is the time to hit that 11 pop defence on the other side of the map with your carefully timed strike.

 As an 88 owner, I really would rather not have to lay it out for you step by step. I would rather you kept despairing, crying "it's hopeless without arty and offmaps!", and spend all your time here on the forums when you could be in game ruining flaks left and right. Really I would. After all,  it would mean I wouldn't lose my flak so often, and could enjoy victory after victory as my opponents gave up the second they saw a flak on the field.

 But no, here I am like a sucker meticulously laying out for you what so many really good players already know. Its hard enough watching all of them gank my flak every time I bring out against them, god knows why I'm sharing the strategy with a whole new generation.

 Maybe I'm just funny like that.

-Wind

[CrazyWR]

except when you place it in the middle of the map...or play a 2v2 where 88's usually can reach out across the entire width of the map if its open...which most 2v2 maps are.

[TheWindCriesMary]

except when you place it in the middle of the map...or play a 2v2 where 88's usually can reach out across the entire width of the map if its open...which most 2v2 maps are.

 Yeah, just no.

 Unless you have a few maps that I've never heard of in your rotation, this is a patently untrue statement.

[Baine]

RTC also isn't the only map where 88s pwn. They work on pretty much every single map except Vengeance, which most people don't like anyways from my experience.

Ha, not working on Vengeance? You have no clue man!
Every map that has a field you need to cross is a map for an 88. But then again, there's so many maps, that will leave enough possibilities to flank the 88, or to totally ignore it.

StComeDu Mont. Place an 88 on the field side, and the enemies will soon start to realize they have to attack in the city.
Soon, the 88 man's friends will start to insult him for being a camper and tell him to Fucking move his ass over to them to help them, while the enemies concentrate on the city side.
When the fights over there reach the highest point, a fast push(halftrucks [those die to 2 shots, not to 1 btw] with flamers/rifles) on the other side will turn out to be devastating.

There's so many ways to kill flaks. Airbornes behind, while your teammate attacks from front.

Ignoring it, to wipe the other flank(especially nasty in 2v2s).

Or, to do something nobody would expect. Tank rush it, i mean, 2 shermans, 1 halftruck and 1 m10 or some light vehicles that now are oh so comon.
Nobody would expect something like this and it would render MGs/mg bunkers/ostwinds/Wirbelwinds/snipers etc totally useless. The chance that you will find at least 1 pak with the 88 is high if you play against someone who knows what he does.
You will lose one or two tanks, but the flak will be destroyed, and with it, will be the support.
And then again you could try to advance on the other flank simltaneously with a tank and infantry. The flak man will cry for help from his teammate to save the friggin flak, so the chances that the other side is left with less defenses is higher.

There's o so many ways a flak can die, have seen everything. Even 1 airborne with RRs, fireup, shoot it, throw satchel, boing. And that leads to the next doctrines everyone will be able to unlock, infantry that's harder to kill, will run over the land like a tsunami!

[brn4meplz]

If you've got a CCT on your team use that, Drop creeping smoke barrage on the rouet leading up to it and then sit there in the smoke and blast at it with anything. Me and Scyn used to rush 88's that way with his Pershing's

[Unkn0wn]

It takes some teamwork and coordination, that's for sure.

[Latios418]

Locked down on Nuenen by a flak on the left side? Do a combined offensive on the right with your partner. If territory were equal, it would be your 50 pop vs your enemies 39 (assuming they only left 11 pop including the flak to defend the opposite side). Should that fail, or should you notice your opponents moving most of their forces to counter you, that is the time to hit that 11 pop defence on the other side of the map with your carefully timed strike.

Helloooo, bad placement. Don't place it on the left side and you wouldn't have this problem. You can easily place it where it covers the town, fields, and everything in front of it. If you start on the bottom spawn you'll have to do some hedge destroying, but that doesn't really hamper it's effectiveness.

Everything you have said here is based on what you think will happen. "X will happen when I try to do this, and then X will lead to Z and Z to Q. It's hearsay and conjecture, building  your own conclusions upon your other previous conclusions and calling it logic. ".

Everything I'm saying here is based on hard statistics and my experience with the Flak36. Taking the halftrack argument for example;

-It WILL one hit kill a Haltrack at over 80 meters range
-It WILL one hit kill a second Halftrack significantly closer
-Engineers WILL be suppressed, because they have the worst suppression resistance in the game with the Flak36 being covered by one of two extremely good suppression weapons.
-Engineers WILL die, because they are extremely fragile and are facing up against extremely potent anti-infantry weapons.

etc etc etc

[Latios418]

If you've got a CCT on your team use that, Drop creeping smoke barrage on the rouet leading up to it and then sit there in the smoke and blast at it with anything. Me and Scyn used to rush 88's that way with his Pershing's

Best damn idea I've ever heard about countering the Flak36.

[Baine]

I have yet to see a halftruck die to 1 shot from an 88, when the halftruck has full health.

[Unkn0wn]

You could always run a decoy jeep or two ahead.

[Latios418]

I have yet to see a halftruck die to 1 shot from an 88, when the halftruck has full health.

....Oh shit.

I had thought the M3 had 250hp, which would mean the 225dmg the Flak does would put it below 5% hp for a critical death would mean instant death. But, once you mentioned it I double checked and the M3 has a full 315 hp.

That makes the halftrack rush quite a bit more viable, at any rate. I still prefer the creeping smoke barrage idea.

[Unkn0wn]

AB drop + satchel is really efficient as well, not much that can go wrong there unless there's an ostwind or wirbelwind sitting next to it. It probably wont kill the gun but it'll disable it for a short period of time allowing your team to move in and seal the deal.

[Latios418]

Well, it depends on what you're playing against. Wehr, that might work, although that's a big sacrifice to decrew it temporarily (AB will be pinned by mg and forced to retreat after satchel; recrew squad jumps on it is most likely scenario). But against PE, a Flak38 is almost always going to be near it, which will not only shred airborne dropping in, but it'll also kill fired up airborne making a rush at the 88 fast enough to prevent a satchel too.

[TheWindCriesMary]

I have yet to see a halftruck die to 1 shot from an 88, when the halftruck has full health.

....Oh shit.

I had thought the M3 had 250hp, which would mean the 225dmg the Flak does would put it below 5% hp for a critical death would mean instant death. But, once you mentioned it I double checked and the M3 has a full 315 hp.

That makes the halftrack rush quite a bit more viable, at any rate. I still prefer the creeping smoke barrage idea.

 Dont rely on your interpretation of statistics and how you think things will go. It's not going to serve you half as well as simple experience. Like I said, you built your logic based on erroneous conclusions (one being that a HT would die in 1 hit from a flak), and then you kept adding conclusions on top of things like that to convince yourself it was impossible.

 Trust the guys who know their stuff based on what they have seen in-game. Thats where your gonna get the best info.

[Baine]

Well, it depends on what you're playing against. Wehr, that might work, although that's a big sacrifice to decrew it temporarily (AB will be pinned by mg and forced to retreat after satchel; recrew squad jumps on it is most likely scenario). But against PE, a Flak38 is almost always going to be near it, which will not only shred airborne dropping in, but it'll also kill fired up airborne making a rush at the 88 fast enough to prevent a satchel too.

You should definately scout the area before you drop, so you know what to expect.

[Unkn0wn]

You can also always try running a recon run into it .

[Tymathee]

best way to beat it if there's no hmg near it, just infantry rush it, decrew, recrew, rape. Works for me everytime i see no hmgs and low ai near it.

[Ununoctium]

they brought the 88 on the right as a joke later.
thee south was TT'ed shut and the north was where we fought untill 2 snipers raped us... we got them but it was too late.

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