[WM][PE] Flak 88

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[CafeMilani]

bad luck 4 u^^
this map is usually dominated by arty...

[Bubz]

Another reason for why it is a bad map.

[Setesh]

Its an open map, Yeah. You can still go south, and the tank traps can be destroyed.
Dont blame the map on this one

Its not like

"oooh noes! one 88" This map is now broke!

[Bubz]

Look at the map, there is an empty corridor guarded by two houses without cover or hedgerows in the middle. then we have two flanking ways on the sides which can be locked down as easily as the middle. sorry it's not a good map. it was probably betterin the older version.

[31stPzGren]

As it is, the 88 is too cost effective for what it can do. Built properly, the 88 with its low popcap, allows for massive combined arms, detering almost any form of attack short of the most gimmicky starts.

[Setesh]

What ever, I play Allies now, they rape

So lets go with the flow

I Agree, Increase the price of 88 and lower the price of Howie,
The 88 can 2 hit kill half tracks but the Howie you can doge and its only good for anti bloob, Maybe paks two.
So how about

Flak88 +100mp +20mu +20fuel
Howie -20mp -+ 0 mun +- 30 fuel

[Baine]

What ever, I play Allies now, they rape

So lets go with the flow

I Agree, Increase the price of 88 and lower the price of Howie,
The 88 can 2 hit kill half tracks but the Howie you can doge and its only good for anti bloob, Maybe paks two.
So how about

Flak88 +100mp +20mu +20fuel
Howie -20mp -+ 0 mun +- 30 fuel

Are you kidding me? The 88 is fine. The biggest problem is setting it up.
When it stands in a good position you will have to invest more resources to kill it, but there's so many times where 88s will get killed before they can set up. That doesn't really happen to Howitzers ever.
88s have to be relatively close to the main battle scene, that means, you need to time it perfectly.
Dunno what you guys have, maybe you wait for all the doctrine unlocks that will enable more ways to easy kill a 88...

[31stPzGren]

Are you kidding me? The 88 is fine. The biggest problem is setting it up.

Random Mode selects Allies Attack.

Prior to this, I agree its probably a little more balanced in R+ mode only because of the difficulty in setting up. If you allow your opponent to do so, you deserve to lose anyway.

[Scyn]

It does not select allies attack.

[Smithy17]

Surely it does sometimes.

[31stPzGren]

It does not select allies attack.

Rephrase... When R+ Mode gets allies attack, you're quite fucked.

[TheWindCriesMary]

 This is usually the way these balance forums work.

 A few players of one side come up against a unit that they cannot always overcome with their traditional tactics. They are set in their strategies and do not believe they should have to change, get creative, or adapt to counter a specific threat. Instead, it's much easier to simply suggest that the obstacle itself should instead be removed or diminished by nerfing it. While their at it, they also like to try and get one of their own units buffed in the process.

 Practically everyone wants their own army to be buffed, and has a long list of units that they feel are "omg so OP" in the opposing armies they face. Few have the maturity to admit that each army in this mod has it's tremendous strengths, and neccessary weaknesses. Those weaknesses are a crime when they are talking about their own army, but a very neccesary and important thing when talking about other armies, just as the strengths of their army are hardly adequate while those of opposing armies are completely outrageous and in need of an immediate nerf.

 The fact of the matter is, there is a phobia of adaptation in this atmosphere at the moment. The flak 88 is a vulnerable and potentially dangerous tool for a defensive/luftwaffe player that can also potentially be a devestating weapon. The reason so many allied players are complaining about it in this thread, based on the reasons they have given, is that it demands them to have to try something outside of their usual tactics - and they don't like that one bit. They want to rush it with their tanks, or snipe it with their at's like they do against most other threats. Those strategies are great in most situations, and utilize the strengths of the allied army well, but the flak 88 is a different type of challenge that requires a different type of counter. But "omg thats so unfair!!!1" After all, why should they have to think up new approaches when they don't want to? Shouldn't their standard company, which is set up just the way they like it, be able to take on anything? Thats not fair if it cant! Just nerf it instead.


 There is a sheep mentality developing here, and its creating a divide between players who see something that challenges their rigid concept of strategy and company composition and spend their time complaining about it, and those that instead spend it developing lethal ways to dismantle it. I am a flak 88 user, but it is not that fact alone that convinces me it is not overpowered, underpriced, or unfair. It is the simple fact that I have seen good players demolish my flak, (or worse, recrew it), in one fell swoop by used misdirection, combined arms, and teamwork. Flak's do have the power to change the outcome of games...when they fall into enemy hands.

 The day one of you can come to these forums with clear examples of those three things failing, I will wholeheartedly agree with you that the flak 88 is overpowered.

 Unfortunately for that to happen, your going to have to actually try. Wasting your time here complaining about everything you don't like doesn't count as trying.

-Wind

[Sharpshooter824]

@ Boldaslove

Alrighty, i've been reading just about every post you've written and I really need to say first off, just because somebody has a hard time countering a unit doesn't mean they lack a counter or lack skill, yes I agree some units people would like to think are OP because they get owned by them all the time and can't logically counter them but the fact that relic has such a hard time balancing this game with the 4 factions certain units are OP. (Yes I know EIR team has changed some stats, abilities and what not but the fact is certain units are OP) Im not going to list what units i think are OP because im sure few people agree with me, Anyway imho the flak88 could have a small price increase for how crazy range it is and the ability to lock town a sector against any vehicles and it just about never missing, it is a bit powerful for how inexpensive it is, im not flaming you im simply stating facts.

[Latios418]

A few players of one side come up against a unit that they cannot always overcome with their traditional tactics. They are set in their strategies and do not believe they should have to change, get creative, or adapt to counter a specific threat. Instead, it's much easier to simply suggest that the obstacle itself should instead be removed or diminished by nerfing it. While their at it, they also like to try and get one of their own units buffed in the process.

I've stopped reading here. You will not stop insulting my skills, and without ever having seen me play, think I haven't tried anything creative. You think that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a unit to be overpowered, and that anybody who says it needs nerfing sucks, thinking they only use one strategy. Nobody in this thread has even said the word buff (AFAIK), much less suggested that any unit needs buffing.

I am done with this argument because you cannot argue without insulting the opposition's skills.

[TheWindCriesMary]

@ Boldaslove

Alrighty, i've been reading just about every post you've written and I really need to say first off, just because somebody has a hard time countering a unit doesn't mean they lack a counter or lack skill, yes I agree some units people would like to think are OP because they get owned by them all the time and can't logically counter them but the fact that relic has such a hard time balancing this game with the 4 factions certain units are OP. (Yes I know EIR team has changed some stats, abilities and what not but the fact is certain units are OP) Im not going to list what units i think are OP because im sure few people agree with me, Anyway imho the flak88 could have a small price increase for how crazy range it is and the ability to lock town a sector against any vehicles and it just about never missing, it is a bit powerful for how inexpensive it is, im not flaming you im simply stating facts.

 Sharpshooter, I have not once suggested that someone who has difficulty countering a unit lacks abillity or skill. In fact, those who try and fail, but are eager to improve and learn new tactics are in fact the people my posts have sought to praise (aka. "Time and time again I have seen great players overcome X by doing x, y, and z"). Instead, what I have actually said is that those people who, instead of trying to figure out good ways to counter such units,  spend their time on this forum complaining about said unit rather than trying to learn about the good ways to beat it are spending their time poorly. Many of the posts in this thread are not "This unit is very powerful in certain situations, does anyone who has seen them beat have any suggestions about good strategies to do so?", but rather "omg flak 88 = instant win, nerf it now". It is these latter types of posts that reflect a lack of imagination and the willingness to be creative that I was speaking about. There is nothing wrong with having difficulty with a unit, but it is how you respond to that difficulty that defines you.

Please read my words carefully or else you will come up with all kinds of unintended interpretations which can morph my argument into something that it is most certainly not. It's hard enough supporting what I am arguing, without having to defend all the things that I am not.

 Also, in response to your statement that the flak is too powerful for how inexpensive it is, it is actually adequately priced given how easy it is to counter the weapon. Just moments ago my vet 3 flak was completely decrewed by a single howitzer barrage from a vet 1 howitzer. It had been full health before the barrage, and 2 lucky shots killed every crew member. If i'm lucky, I can keep a vet 3 88 crew alive for 2 games.

 What i'm starting to realize here, is that the flak 88 is as much as pyschological weapon as it is a physical one. When it intimidates people into feeling a sense of helplessness, it is indeed becoming more useful than it's resource costs.


@Latios:

 I have seen you play, and on several occassions. Your identity on these forums is not nearly as well hidden as you would have anyone believe. In-game, while you are a nice guy, you easily grow frustrated and lend yourself to despair in tough situations. You tend to have a shorter fuse when you get frustrated than others. This is important when dealing with an obstacle like an 88, because when you encounter such a challenge in a game it usually requires you to sit back for a moment, take stock, and patiently devise a plan. This is a challenging prospect for more action-oriented, results-driven players who want to act quickly.

 You quit PE because you felt they were underpowered, and yet now that you are allies you are attempting to argue that one of their few powerful units needs to be nerfed. It is an odd, but not surprising coincidence.

 And no, it is not impossible for a unit to be overpowered. However, if the unit in question is one that I have seen bested time and time again with good teammwork and a little creativity, then I will most certainly suggest that the cries for it to be nerfed are most stridently made from those who are unwilling to embrace either of those two principles.

 As to your claim that nobody in this thread has suggested any unit needs buffing, you might want to rethink this statement once you have scrolled up and read Setesh's post. You probably missed it, but it represents a grevious contradiction to your claim.

  -Wind

[gamesguy2]

Onmap howitzer is not a reliable counter to the 88.  And with every wehr doctrine having an offmap, if you can't kill a static howitzer you deserve to get bombed into the stone age.

There are a few surprising counters to the 88 people don't normally think of.  For example the churchill croc is excellent vs the 88.  Stay at the max flamer range(35) and the 88 will be bouncing off its front armor half the time, while the flamer would rape the 88 crew sitting in the 88's heavy cover.

AVRE can decrew the gun with one shot and bring the gun down to 1/4 hp.

Barring that, smoke+ rush in flamers always works.

The only time an 88 is a problem is when its guarded by a flakvierling, which is obscenely good vs infantry.   

[Demon767]

My 88 crew has been killed many times, by mortar fire, by smoke + commandos  and piats and well a whole lot of troops without us suspecting because the whole team made a push for my poor little 88  

But in any case they recrewed my 88 and what did i do... i got 2 falls squad to charge it ... decrewed it and i got my 88 back  ... later for it to be decrewed and recrewed by the commandos again lol. but the point is the players that use it protect is so  because all of there resources go into it.

Luftwaffe doesnt have much doctrine wise. Ok we got butterfly, mines, henshel.. Luftwaffe dont have any buffs until the last tier which you only pick one so for the rest of your time playing luftwaffe you have to make do with all ordinary PE units. the ones you start with basically are the ones you have the whole entire time.

Luftwaffe doctrine have alot to do with paradropping falls in the field.

I can agree on one thing, raise it to 10 pop but not 12. that is far to much as its a sitting duck for any offmap, howizter for it to suddenly turn into enemy hands.

remember it costs 450mp and 220fu. more than and panzer, half of a panther.

Sry if any of my comments F up some people... trrrrrying not to be bias.

[Killer344]

double sniper + smoke also makes wonders :O.

[Blitzen]

I just killed an 88 10 seconds after it was made.  Simply rush some fodder towards it to distract it, then hit it with an AT gun.  takes about 4 seconds to kill one.

[Sharpshooter824]

@ BoldasLove
Once again what IM saying IS that IT is a bit too effective at its JOB of all out slaying tanks and imho it should recieve a SMALL price increase, for how powerful it really is. and please stop with the poems