Randomness of R Mode

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[pqumsieh]

Lets discuss the randomness of reinforcements mode. I talked to EIRRMOD briefly and he felt the change was necissary in order to get the other modes some play time. Do you think this was a good change?

Personally, I do not think allied/axis attack are balanced. EIRR pointed out that the attacker gets a higher modifer on their terrritory gained in order to balance things; however, I do not think this fixes anything. Bottom line, defend mode is not balanced for a variety of reasons. Please revert the change it allow us to choose between R or D mode. If players werent playing D mode previously, there would have been a good reason.

Being forced to play modes I do not like is ruining my gaming experience. Do others agree? Am I alone? Should they revert the change? Lets discuss this in detail

PQ

[DasNoob]

You are probably not alone, but I do not agree.

+ when the war map comes in attack/defend style games will be needed more than ever.

I've won and lost equally on attack/defend in 2 years so I don't know what the big stink is about now.

[Demon767]

what is this war map that everyone is talking bout?

[TheWindCriesMary]

 I agree with you that being on the attack is significantly more difficult and can oftentimes lead to a game that is essentially an uphill battle the whole way through. However, I do not agree that the randomness of R mode should be removed.

 Attacking and defending modes give the game a more historic feel, so instead of trying to avoid playing these types of games lets spend our time coming up with ideas and suggestions about how we can level the playing field in them. I think everyone can agree the current territory bonus for attackers is not a sufficient system, but what about looking into decreasing the overal pop of the defenders? Nevyen mentioned today how usually in other types of games, the defender is usually penalized with a small army against superior numbers. The advantages of a fixed position are working on their sides, and the numerical superiority of their enemy is supposed to be the mitigating equalizer.

 Also, don't forget that EiRRMod has mentioned his plans for adding a whole slew of attacker special abillities for offense mode like recon runs, artillery, etc.

 So lets not rob ourselves of a little diversity when it comes to game modes, but instead find ways that we can compromise and tweak the current system to make it more balanced and fun for everyone.

-Wind

[Demon767]

well if its random and say the starting pop is oh 18, but because you dont know if you attack or defend u will need 2 core armies. 1 25, and 1 18. kinda annoying there.

[pqumsieh]

Strictly from a game play point of view, it makes to sense to force players into games modes. You do not even have to get into balance; all that needs to be said for a successful argument is that people do not like the change. Now, unless I am wrong and people in fact love the change, then it would be logical to just make the revert.

If you are aiming to force players to balance their battalions around both game styles do it another way. In other words, the gain that might be obtained from forcing players into game modes does not equal the cost by any means. A simpler solution might be awarding the attacking faction a greater PP bonus. That is, a positive reinforcement rather then a negative one. If you removed the randomness and relied on this enticement you might be better off. Less people would feel their gaming experience was being ruined.

If you get double PP and XP that might be enough to provide the other modes with more play time. However, as things stands, the current solution falls short of being well designed.

PQ

[Demon767]

personally i like that idea of extra PP and XP and possibily gain an extra experience on vets.

[Scyn]

Actually... the idea of Random is so players don't design their companies around a gimmick or actively create callins based on trying to waste the other players' call in. It's quite simple to build your company to suit all 3 game modes. I see no flaw in this other than some people not being prepared or used to playing the other game modes.

[Akranadas]

Just for clarity's sake.

The randomness of the system is 50% Chance of Reinforcement Mode, 25% Chance of Attacking 25% Chance of Defending.

[pqumsieh]

I am all for balanced battalions. I am saying this is not the solution. Find a better solution, as I mentioned before one might be through positive reinforcements. As someone with experience in development, it’s a golden rule that you only restrict a player’s choice when the benefit of doing so is far greater then the cost. In this case, I do not think it is.

We could take this time to brainstorm some ideas of how we could reduce the restrictions but still maintain the goal. I've provided one idea; I'd like to hear what others have to say.

As a final note, this change seems to benefit more experienced players; causing many of the newer or lesser experience COH players to suffer. As a result, we are limiting the number of potential new community’s members; especially, if they feel the learning curve is too great.

[EIRRMod]

Also, 'for gameplay' is getting thrown around a bit.

So heres the retort.

For gameplay reasons, R+ mode was changed to a random mode, because people were building 'gimmick' companies based completely on R+ mode, which functions completely differently from Attack / Defend - which was the staple gametype of original EIR.

[Scyn]

Everyone will have to learn it eventually.. or when the War Map comes out you'll fail even harder. : /

[EIRRMod]

I am all for balanced battalions. I am saying this is not the solution. Find a better solution, as I mentioned before one might be through positive reinforcements. As someone with experience in development, it’s a golden rule that you only restrict a player’s choice when the benefit of doing so is far greater then the cost. In this case, I do not think it is.

As someone *else* who has experience in development, I agree, and, from the griefing that was happening, this *IS* the lesser of two evils.

And as for the 'Find a better solution' - how bout YOU find one?

[pqumsieh]

lol, I did! I said just double the PP/XP gain for Defend/Attack modes. Heck, do that and I'll gladly endure some of the imbalances of attack/defend.

Heres a different scenario EIRRMOD, what if people start quiting games early because they feel they cannot counter the enemies defences. I've seen it happen three times now. Twice when I was defending and the enemy gave up 10 minutes in, and once when I was attacking and me and my teammate couldnt punch through and hold. What well you do if players just start leaving early to gain a quick PP/XP boost? Is that the better of the two evils? Are you goign to start banning accounts because players refuse to play? Or rather, at the very least penalizing players?

Let me just say that I am simply playing devils advocate. I am engaging in respectful debate (I know reading text can sometimes be done in a negative manner, making things seem hostile when they are not) I feel this disclaimer is necissary because I can already tell its a sensative area. Again, I have no anger/frustration/or aggression in my debate, so please do not read it that way.

[Scyn]

If you double XP gains for attack/defend all the noobs will play attack/defend to gain XP, while the pros will play R+ to gain PP points to spend on unlocks. And this goes the other way around. You can't base game modes on payout options. It's quit simple. This is a war... not all battles were met as both armies entered the field. You have to accommodate all 3 or get rid of 2. As I said it's very easy to separate your callins in a manner that suits all 3 modes. And if it's a skill thing.. you best get the practice now or later on when the War map hits you'll be at a severe disadvantage.

[EIRRMod]

Then the tone of your posts was a tad skewed - the disclaimer puts it in the right light

The xp or pp (or both) was discussed last night as one option.

if players just start leaving early to gain a quick PP/XP boost?

People quitting early, is another matter - which will be resolved later.
And is a causal effect, not a development one.

[pqumsieh]

@ Scyn: Let me ask you this, equal skill levels who will win attacker or defend? I would find it hard to argue that as things stand the attacker would win. That said, usually an attacker who does win either is superior to the defender or gets lucky (good counter to enemy battalion, a few lucky shots, etc.)

My battalions are balanced for all three modes, and my skill level is good enough to allow me to hold my own. That said, this discussion should not be directed at skill so much as the randomness of R mode. Unless you feel they are very closely related and should be a point of discussion.

[Akranadas]

Call me an Old timer, but I prefer attack/defend mode. Nothing like the eerie silence before the storm

[EIRRMod]

Just a quick comment on the aspect of skill, I *semi* agree that the benefit lies with the defender, but only for two reasons:

Inexperience in the Attacking team (does not always equate to skill)
and
Skill level gaps are more exasperated in Att / Def mode

The thing is, in a evenly matched game, I believe it is even, the defenders must spread to defend, while the attackers all come on and can choose a single point to attack / overwhelm.  One of the big mistakes people make in Att / Def games, is that they all pair up against their opposing player.

[pqumsieh]

@ EIRRMOD: I’m glad to hear you guys are already aware of some of the issues that are resulting from attack/defend modes. I hope the solutions are not too onerous on the player. I just see this already going bad, hopefully I am wrong. I really enjoy the mod, I also find myself playing with less experienced players quite often. So the added curve caused by this effects me greatly. I saw players struggle before the change, but even more so with the change. Again, my main concern is for the community and game play; I am trying not to be fixed in my point of view or biased in my argument. Hopefully that is evident.

PQ