Power of Pervitin Pills (Broken T4, Replay)

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[lionel23]

Okay, this game was triple terror vrs Allies... and I just want to use this to highlight the power of pills in its current state against allies.

Pretty much it boils down to vanilla gren start just rolling allies and sprinting moving and chasing down infantry and instantly gunning them down.  I use KCH (lacking pills and I prefer KCH) and the sheer 'terror' of how powerful grens are makes KCH a joke currently.  In addition, the allies are forced back to their spawn and are basically camped by 3 King Tigers due to having nothing that can stand against the inf and having their weak ATGs blown up.

Stat screen wise, I was the lowest on kill chart for being a purely anti-inf focus company, being more than double out-scored in infantry kills to vanilla grens with pills.  And I believe from what I saw the +1 speed allows the grens to shoot while moving (excluding stationary weapons), making it effectively much better than fireup with no penalty, and on top of that having very wickedly fast recharge.

HMGs, Bars, Brens just fail to stop that, and even mass vehicle spam (LVs and tanks) cannot stop that much infantry when there is even a little AT support from the axis... I run the pak gun in my opening just because I'm tapped out but otherwise I personally have no AT in my whole company other than my King Tiger... and we effectively wipe out the allies means to counter tanks or our infantry.

I'm posting this replay in hopes of getting some discussion into the state of Terror's powerful T4 line, in that I personally don't think grens should out-perform (cost-wise) dedicated allied anti-infantry platforms and units so easily for so cheap.  Your guys thoughts?

[Malgoroth]

Triple any company is hard to counter. Triple blitz with 6 tigers and elite armor gren spam for example. Triple armor with 6 Pershings and 3 calliopes. Triple RE (scariest imho) with their mess of everything the axis fear more than Unholy King Lucifer - God of the inferno.

If pills WERE to be nerfed (the axis fanboy in me would despair so hard) then the fairest thing would be to make it like inspired assault where they take something like... I don't know... 15% more incoming accuracy instead of the 10% health (which is super negated by med packs).
I would be very much against adding a cost to the ability as that would be, once again - imho, an overnerf that would insure the ability is never used (Wehrmacht is expensive enough as it is).

Besides. Support spam/flammer spam seems to work well when backed up by artillery. If people prepare for it I don't think it's THAT hard to counter. Meta game, man. Meta game. Always changing, always annoying, but it's why we play the game and keep coming back for more.

[lionel23]

Triple infantry isn't no where as near powerful, and if they are using mass howies, leaves their front line very vulnerable to being assaulted.

The thing is I have no issues with triple terror, BUT when a power negates their weakness, it should be an issue.  Howie Infantry companies are tying up pop in their artillery and have less guys on the front, making a breakthru an issue.  TR was nerfed to the point where it doesn't help against tanks and has been stated no one wants to give infantry a good ability to counter armor as that is their inherent weakness.  Airborne are the tank reapers of the US, but lack dedicated anti-iinf 'win' units to keep their primary weakness at bay.  US Armor is all about the pershing.. which makes them vulnerable to anti-armor counters (and I do agree 6 pershings and a calliope is an issue.. 2 pershings should negate the ability to buy a calliope resource wise... it's one or the other people!).

Pills needs a lot of addressing:

1) Price needs to be associated with this, as you can place it on every mainline infantry squad in your company and overpower dedicated anti-inf allied companies and support weapons with ease.
2) Remove +1 speed.  Why should they be able to move at Fire-up speed AND still be allowed to shoot?  That's just crazy.  And at the same time doing amazing dmg and having better accuracy while doing so.  No allied infantry based squad can escape that, and these mass sprint-walking troops are chasing after vehicles and shreking them for increased dmg and accuracy.
3) The recharge time is WAY too low.  Captain foo is on a global timer due to how powerful that is, Fire-up and commando smoke are on long recharge timers due to how amazing they are to the squads they protect, yet pills has one of the lowest cooldown recharges for an ability that not only gives them the advantages of fire-up plus more, but there are no penalties other than a very minor HP loss which is negated by 20MU medkits that you fire-up and allow them to heal and move at full speed.
4) I agree with Mal in that if something else needs to be done, I was thinking something in line with 'inspired assault'.  Give them the crazy power that it is, but make it so these 'hyped up nazi drug super soldiers' are vulnerable while doing their dmg.. so while they are doing more damage, they are more vulnerable to incoming fire.  Then that would be a good counter balance.  Or lowering the overall advantage where vanilla rifle grens aren't mowing down allied BARs and HMGs with ease.

Just something in one of the above options would be satisfactory.. I'm not asking for a NERF BAT and we hit it with everything we got, but some minor tweak to make it playable against needs to be done, just like how the old terror one man shrek with... that rapid fire thing where a single guy with a shrek can kill 3 shermans before the shermans get a 2nd shot off is needed just to level the playing field some.  I see how we removed the +1smg from bazooka rangers cause it was just too OP and that happened fast, yet no one sees a problem with pills as in?  And this doesn't even take into account terror snipers 'blending' their kills into the carnage or mass marksmen snipe on top of the grens too.

[BigDick]

did not watched the replay...but what we have in it is:

allies:
 Enkk, smilingAI (bad player), wicky26 (was never a good allied player and he did not played in ages)

axis:

SeanConnery, Panda?, and lionel (ok he even it out a bit)


probably allies got owned because of much inferior players

[lionel23]

did not watched the replay...but what we have in it is:

allies:
 Enkk, smilingAI (bad player), wicky26 (was never a good allied player and he did not played in ages)

axis:

SeanConnery, Panda?, and lionel (ok he even it out a bit)


probably allies got owned because of much inferior players

Not to be a dick (no pun intended, heh), but you should probably watch the replay before making uninformed comments about something you have not witnessed.  People always scream 'replay or it didn't happen', and here is a replay demonstrating Pills currently.

[Tymathee]

no, p pills are insane to the point that i see a known terror player i avoid him cuz i'm so sick of it.

to add on top of it, it has a t3 that allows them to survive suppression better which of course negates one of the best counters to a p pill infantry, so not only are they doing more damage, having better accuracy (someone tell me how a man is popping Meth and being more accurate?)

[BigDick]

the best counters to these companies are light vehicles

something the allies spamed in past and got replaced now by allied supportspam

[smurfORnot]

(someone tell me how a man is popping Meth and being more accurate?)

someone tell me why doesnt KT have etc. 88 

lets try not to bring realism in Tym,ok?!

[Tymathee]

the best counters to these companies are light vehicles

something the allies spamed in past and got replaced now by allied supportspam

allies don't use 'em anymore because they got nerfed and axis got more counters to light vehicle spam.

[smurfORnot]

and those counters are? dunno what wehr got new...

[Malgoroth]

Triple infantry isn't no where as near powerful, and if they are using mass howies, leaves their front line very vulnerable to being assaulted.

The thing is I have no issues with triple terror, BUT when a power negates their weakness, it should be an issue.  Howie Infantry companies are tying up pop in their artillery and have less guys on the front, making a breakthru an issue.  TR was nerfed to the point where it doesn't help against tanks and has been stated no one wants to give infantry a good ability to counter armor as that is their inherent weakness.  Airborne are the tank reapers of the US, but lack dedicated anti-iinf 'win' units to keep their primary weakness at bay.  US Armor is all about the pershing.. which makes them vulnerable to anti-armor counters (and I do agree 6 pershings and a calliope is an issue.. 2 pershings should negate the ability to buy a calliope resource wise... it's one or the other people!).

Pills needs a lot of addressing:

1) Price needs to be associated with this, as you can place it on every mainline infantry squad in your company and overpower dedicated anti-inf allied companies and support weapons with ease.
2) Remove +1 speed.  Why should they be able to move at Fire-up speed AND still be allowed to shoot?  That's just crazy.  And at the same time doing amazing dmg and having better accuracy while doing so.  No allied infantry based squad can escape that, and these mass sprint-walking troops are chasing after vehicles and shreking them for increased dmg and accuracy.
3) The recharge time is WAY too low.  Captain foo is on a global timer due to how powerful that is, Fire-up and commando smoke are on long recharge timers due to how amazing they are to the squads they protect, yet pills has one of the lowest cooldown recharges for an ability that not only gives them the advantages of fire-up plus more, but there are no penalties other than a very minor HP loss which is negated by 20MU medkits that you fire-up and allow them to heal and move at full speed.
4) I agree with Mal in that if something else needs to be done, I was thinking something in line with 'inspired assault'.  Give them the crazy power that it is, but make it so these 'hyped up nazi drug super soldiers' are vulnerable while doing their dmg.. so while they are doing more damage, they are more vulnerable to incoming fire.  Then that would be a good counter balance.  Or lowering the overall advantage where vanilla rifle grens aren't mowing down allied BARs and HMGs with ease.

Just something in one of the above options would be satisfactory.. I'm not asking for a NERF BAT and we hit it with everything we got, but some minor tweak to make it playable against needs to be done, just like how the old terror one man shrek with... that rapid fire thing where a single guy with a shrek can kill 3 shermans before the shermans get a 2nd shot off is needed just to level the playing field some.  I see how we removed the +1smg from bazooka rangers cause it was just too OP and that happened fast, yet no one sees a problem with pills as in?  And this doesn't even take into account terror snipers 'blending' their kills into the carnage or mass marksmen snipe on top of the grens too.

The fact that triple infantry isn't as powerful as the rest of the doctrines to me seems like more of an issue with infantry doctrine.

Triple airborne is a nightmare. Say bye bye to all your tanks and ATGs. Any inf can then be countered by LVs and armor spam.

A price should NOT be associated with pervitin pills. That would be a SEVERE overnerf. I can't state that enough. It'd KILL the ability. Put it on uses if the recharge bugs you, but adding a price would stretch a muni starved doctrine (not to mention - faction) way beyond the limit.

The +1 speed and shooting on the move isn't a huge deal. Yes it buffs the rifles to be awesome but they still have to stop to get the most out of the ability; especially if you're packing schrecks or LMGs . And if your BARs are in green cover, then you have much less to fear. If they're charging after a tank, lure them into an MG/BAR riflemen kill zone. They'll pay for that aggression. Is it better than fire-up? Fuck yes. It's a T4 after all. And the only way they'll take out HMGs and not suffer unacceptable losses while doing so is if they have the marksman shot as well.
A T4 and a T3 that primarily helps against infantry (schrecks are NOT all that intimidating) combined to make clearing support weapons a breeze. I don't see the problem there.

Putting it on uses (2) and exchanging the 10% hp debuff for 15% more received incoming accuracy (any more than that and they'd probably just drop like flies...) are the only changes pervitin pills needs.

Lionel... I see and hear you bring up Tank Reapers a lot. It's clear that the TR nerf was especially grievous in your eyes. I (probably surprisingly) agree. Imho, Terror doctrine has the power and asskickability that ALL Axis doctrines (indeed, all ALLIED doctrines as well) should have. This habit of nerfing super awesome abilities (or, if your fighting against them, super annoying) needs to be reevaluated. Rather than nerf an ability to the point where no one uses it (TR in your case), bring the other doctrines in line to be just as awesome and tweak the T4s that are blatantly OP (old school HE Pershings) to an acceptable level.
For instance - adding a cost or weakening the effects of pervitin pills (a T4) would be far to extreme. BUT, changing it to 2 uses instead of the epic recharge and changing the 10% health loss to a 15% more received accuracy debuff is much more reasonable. The ability retains its badassery while losing its (alleged) OPitude.    

BTW, the rapid firing schreck ability you're thinking of was 'Ferocity'. It was like a super-improved inspired assault that stacked with Zeal. It was the greatest doctrine ability ever and I miss it everyday of my life. Sometimes, a random tear comes to my eye when I think about all the good times Ferocity and I had together. No woman can claim to have had that effect on me. A testament to how great that ability truly was. Damn every one of you who said it was OP. God DAMN you to a frozen abyss of unending suffering. From Hell's heart, I stab at thee; for hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee.

[lionel23]

Mal, go to fuck to bed man, you got surgery tomorrow, stop coming back for more 'drugs' man! Don't make me whoop you, boi'!

[Malgoroth]

Fuck you MOM! I do what I WANT! I thought hydrocodone was supposed to "depress" you and make you drowsy. Instead... I'm fucking wired. Of course... it could just be anxiety at the thought of having someone hack pieces out of my face. And needles. I hate needles.

Whatever it is it's starting to annoy me.

[Mister Schmidt]

Have a happy surgery Mal!

[Malgoroth]

Oh, I'ma have a blast... Nothing quite like getting impaled with a harpoon full of narcotics and then having your face molested by fucking razors to start the day. 

[Mister Schmidt]

What the fuck are you having done?!

[Malgoroth]

Apparently no amount of brushing and mouthwash will protect teeth from the massive quantities of soda I was subjecting them to on a daily basis. So I have like 4 teeth in the back that need to be wrenched from my jaw with razors rather than pliers because the roots are too long or some shit. Plus I have wisdom teeth the need to go to prevent complications with the fakes they're going to nail in their place. Speaking of which, I asked for tusks with which to gore people with but they're giving me boring ass normal teeth.
To say I'm disappointed would be an understatement.

I think we've been discussing my surgery and new-found hydrocodone habit (thanks to my dentists poor judgement) a bit much, so I'll steer the discussion back to pervitin pills now.

Fuck off of pervitin pills you fucking fanboys!

[poyrazthewicked]

did not watched the replay...but what we have in it is:

allies:
 Enkk, smilingAI (bad player), wicky26 (was never a good allied player and he did not played in ages)

axis:

SeanConnery, Panda?, and lionel (ok he even it out a bit)


probably allies got owned because of much inferior players

Yeah u are right I did not played about long times but it does not effect so much...
The thing is it was r+ and our first player (smilinAI) lost all of his first call in without making damage and of course it affected second player because he cant suport.so they control the map and push us out with heavy infantry spam...

but if we turn the title,
pills are very effective esspecially with KCH even mg s cant stop them to kill yeah only light vehicles are very effective other then this I think any ally inf can counter vet3 4 man KCH with pills with KT support...

-wickY26

[Mister Schmidt]

Hmm. You would suit tusks. But yeah anyway, ppills is a tad too much. If you want to bring roos back so I can have double flamers in a tank however...

[Malgoroth]

KCH with oakleaves are the ultimate anti infantry.. infantry. Vet 3 makes them terminators. The T4 makes them overclocked terminators. They're expensive though, so you can't spam them without becoming a one-trick pony. KTs are... eh. Tough as shit but hyper vulnerable to mobbing with TD's/RR's/AP ATGs.

I seriously think my proposed changes are all pervitin pills needs to be brought in line (THEY AREN'T OUT OF LINE. I'LL NEVER ADMIT IT. NEVER NEVER NEVER).