4 Man BAR Squad

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[Demon767]

They are no more delicate than Volks or PE...

LOL i love this, im quoting it.

comparing 1 unit in wehr.. to the whole company of PE

So true! 

[AmPM]

It is true =)

Even some of our armor units lose to rifles lol

[Bubz]

Actually schutlz it's the opposire, larger and weaker squads require more micro than for example stormies, or grenadiers, and allies players can't permit to send their squads to death because their infantry number superiority is non-existant in this game due to resources and pop. You surely can play the blob way, but you would fail vs competent players, as smokaz noticed in another thread performing a flank or using rifles requires more micro than stormies or medikit grenadiers or changing direction to your mg42.

I have to agree on what you said, the better impression is that the less the men the more the glory, it's actually cooler to see three nazi kchs killing hordes of enemies or having your medikit gren lmg squad sitting in cover killing the outnumbering amerikanen, it's like stupidly epic and a dream becoming true for axis fanboys. Add this incounscious feeling to the fact that wehrmacht is far easier than any other faction and you got the majority of players going wehrmacht with some exceptions who go luftwaffe.

Riflemen on their own shouldn't be overupgraded because of the ease they lose men, for example in the campaign of normandy you can call veteran squads armed with up to 5 bars, but they still get suppressed instantly, die in few mortars shot or fell down like flies to lmgs, when put into the firefight enviroment rifles just die, regardless of their upgrades. Unless you go the buff way, and start increasing their healt or received accuracy/suppression, it's like unlocking the possibility of giving more firepower to this unit.

Another thing that is not easily seen is the longrange firepower of axis, which is highly superior, and long range is what matters in games like eir, and the standard kar98 is godlike in this enviroment, once rifles get into effective range they're useless because half of them is dead and the rest is unable to perform the action, so many times schreked grenadiers can defeat barred rifles that have already used suppresion fire, just by kiting them.

A possible solution was the one given by smokaz: hero units, the other is allowing more upgrades on the right units, or buffing those slightly.

Ps: ampm pe is fine, it just requires more skill than wehr, and you do even play luftwaffe.

[Baine]

Wouldn't it be fine if the 4 men bar squad had the same health as grens? And cost the same of course. So people have their mirror soldiers. Availability set to 8, there you go.

Edit: And maybe give them the chance to choose a bazooka instead of bars. This could be upped to two zooks with the infantry T4.

[AmPM]

Actually, I have Luft and Tank Hunters.

I love my Tank Hunters.

[Schultz]

Actually schutlz it's the opposire, larger and weaker squads require more micro than for example stormies, or grenadiers, and allies players can't permit to send their squads to death because their infantry number superiority is non-existant in this game due to resources and pop. You surely can play the blob way, but you would fail vs competent players, as smokaz noticed in another thread performing a flank or using rifles requires more micro than stormies or medikit grenadiers or changing direction to your mg42.

This depends on how you play what you use. Many people prior to blob attack use arti spam or spam vehicle rush to break down the support spam which in its on merit needs to be vigilant and ready to counterattack. Its how you play actually, and what tactics youre familiar with. I used suppression as core strategy on both americans and wehr, but thats just me i like combined arms. Pe on the otherhand is completely different.
I seriously wish i could test 4-men rangers and 5 men rifles though given a wide choice of upgrades

[Mysthalin]

They are no more delicate than Volks or PE...

Oh yes they are.
Volks health per man - 60 HP.
Rifleman health per man - 55 HP.
PE health per man - 55 HP + quite better armor.
Slap on top the fact that noone forces you to buy volks on wehrmacht, and that as PE you can get the quite indeed might IHT. You will never get away from riflemen in your company - the reason I used to love airborne back in old EiR is the fact I did not have to resort to the puny and useless unit that is the rifleman. The extra men in a rifle squad? All it gives is increased recieved accuracy from incremental bonuses on the enemy automatics, and the ability to recrew one more support weapon fully. That's all.

Giving the airborne doctrine back 30-squad airborne armies would go a long way in making US way more cool. There's no more oversupply or Raid Assault to make that broken.

Now let us consider the basic support weapons the axis get vs riflemen, and the units the allies get vs volks and Pgrens.

The HMG42 will suppress riflemen in a single, sole burst that lasts less than 2 seconds. It also has 10 more range than the allied .30 cal(in which case, "scoped" grenadiers and volks can actualy outrange and kill an allied MG).

The Mortars : An allied rifle squad might actualy get insta-gibbed by a single mortar shell, and with doctrine abilities it will start becoming more and more often. I have not yet seen any volksgrenadier squad get gibbed by an allied mortar, though I have seen a PzGren squad annihilated by a captured axis mortar.

The IHT and Wehr HT : both insta-suppress riflemen. The IHT does way more damage, the WHT pins in two bursts. At any rate, in both cases, the riflemen are dead. In the first case, the units in the IHT destroy anyone stupid enough not to run, in the second, the riflemen are forever pinned, and a flamer squad aboard a WHT isn't all that uncommon. Suppression > Killing power when it comes to halftrack guns, and the M3 gun is inferior in both to the IHT, and loses heavily in suppresion when compared to the WHT.

part of the problem with Amis is survivability and vetting up.

Which would you rather vet up, a bunch of grens P4s and panther or rifles sherman and croc?

Only units which are enjoyable to vet up on the amis are elites and pershing/calli.

So true - in a mod about persistancy, not having much of it in your company really rather borks it when playing US.

Another huge problem about US riflemen is that they're advertised as versatile, when in fact they're not at all. Sure BARs give you a "let's suppress/pin a few guys" button, and the grenade gives you a nice enough building clearer - which if they were any more survivable to get vet, it would be useful, but the sticky is pretty much worthless. Any axis player worth his name as a proper player will dodge any and all stickies, unless he fucks up something terrible. So how is the rifleman versatile? It's just a mediocre anti-infantry unit and a one-use "let's scare away tanks" unit with a sticky.

I propose taking away fireup from these units

Good idea! Then the airborne can't even destroy a single nebelwerfer they drop on top of - it's not like they're shock troops that are supposed to do it, they can't kill a housed HMG any more, leaving the airborne completely out of breakthrough units. They have the worst rifle in the game - actualy, a captain's webley outDPSes the airborne M1 Carbine, so yeah - passive cloak to lurk for tanks with a huge, easy to detect squad in exchange for breakthrough tactics that the unit is equiped to do doesn't sound like a good trade to me.

I do not consider the allied mortar to be a proper breakthrough unit, what with it getting one-shotted by it's axis equivilent and being horribly outranged. Do not go in bearign the "it shoots faster!" argument again because 0.3 seconds per shot isn't exatly much faster. I do not understand why you keep insisting on using it. Even with vet 1 the allied mortar is still horribly outranged by the axis one, and dies quickly, not to mention that it's barrage ability stays the same, so it's forced to use attack ground to use the extra range - means lower rate of fire and less accuracy while shooting.

Wouldn't it be fine if the 4 men bar squad had the same health as grens? And cost the same of course. So people have their mirror soldiers. Availability set to 8, there you go.

However fanboyish and insulting the allies your post is, it holds an actualy true point - US needs a second, more expensive and more powerful line infantry unit, the same way the axis have a choise between crappy volks and awesome grens. Not neccesseraly 4 men, and with 8 availability and the same cost, but at least with somthing.

At any rate, I'm playing brits now and am enjoying actualy having veterancy on more units than 2 shermans. And get this - I've even got veterancy on my base infantry!



*Rant over*

[Bubz]

Actually, I have Luft and Tank Hunters.

I love my Tank Hunters.

I used to play scorched earth and it wasn't that hard as you say, harder than wehr, but still my armor didn't die to rifles small arms as yours do and with 4 pop pgs it wasn't that bad.

[Schultz]

Good idea! Then the airborne can't even destroy a single nebelwerfer they drop on top of - it's not like they're shock troops that are supposed to do it, they can't kill a housed HMG any more, leaving the airborne completely out of breakthrough units. They have the worst rifle in the game - actualy, a captain's webley outDPSes the airborne M1 Carbine, so yeah - passive cloak to lurk for tanks with a huge, easy to detect squad in exchange for breakthrough tactics that the unit is equiped to do doesn't sound like a good trade to me.

Did you even read what i suggested or did you just picked two words out of it ?

[Bubz]

Well, you're not wrong schutlz but removing fireup from a possible assault airborne squad is like removing cloack from mp44 stormies. I like the idea of airbornes/stormies mirror by the way.

[Schultz]

Well, you're not wrong schutlz but removing fireup from a possible assault airborne squad is like removing cloack from mp44 stormies. I like the idea of airbornes/stormies mirror by the way.

Yeah but thats why i suggested giving it something else instead.
And so there is no misunderstanding, im not saying take away fire up for airborne, its just for the new upgraded folks :p and even then give them something more fun and exciting. Spice it up a little.

[Baine]

Wouldn't it be fine if the 4 men bar squad had the same health as grens? And cost the same of course. So people have their mirror soldiers. Availability set to 8, there you go.

However fanboyish and insulting the allies your post is, it holds an actualy true point - US needs a second, more expensive and more powerful line infantry unit, the same way the axis have a choise between crappy volks and awesome grens. Not neccesseraly 4 men, and with 8 availability and the same cost, but at least with somthing.

That post was me being serious.

[Mysthalin]

Did you even read what i suggested or did you just picked two words out of it ?

You suggested passive cloak instead of fire up and/or maybe medikits. Good idea for elite shock units that airborne and rangers are, clearly.

[AmPM]

With 3 BARs on them like he said, they would be. He was only suggesting losing fireup on the AB "Assault weapon" units.

[Mysthalin]

Thing is, without AB as assault units, AB companies are not capable of defeating a proper campdown any more.

[AmPM]

Ummm....yea, because no other companies have to make assaults without fireup....

[Mysthalin]

Because AB have no access to on-map artilery, unlike infantry and armor to soften up the campdown before the assault...

[Demon767]

yea make assault airborne, atleast i wont have to deal with the huge amount of RR AB.

[Bubz]

Just allow a bar upgrade on normal airbornes, or make it a tier dunno, don't remove fire up unless you plan to give them perma cloack like stormies, cover cloack or medikits are miles away from stormies (which can buy medikit too) cloack effectiveness. what makes airbornes similar to stormies is fireup+paradrop, I would give this away for perma cloack anyday, but still they may seem even, so it's ok. With this change at least a little aspect would be resolved.

[Schultz]

lol do you realize how op that would be ?
You drop 4 airborne squads fully equipped, 2 with assaults, 2 with recoiless, nades on assault snatchel. They fire up kill the mg and murder everything else. Once they vet they become unkillable. I guess theres a reason why assault airborne arent in vcoh eh