[US] M3 75mm GMC

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[RoyalHants]

No, it's fine.
The Le.IG has the same armor as a PaK, meaning it dies in just two shots from a 57mm or 6 Lbr.
The Le.IG is shit vs vehicles, though either way that's totally unrelated to the survivability and/or effectiveness of the M3 GMC, anyways.
The Le.IG may have better range/AoE than the M3 GMC (I don't know the actual stats on this, but I'm taking your word for it),

5% bug means it regularly surives 4 shots
umm have you see one latey it took 4 shots at my ff each one hit penetrated and took 15 -20 % health off
and the M3 is on a weaker and less pathable platform

[Illegal_Carrot]

5% bug means it regularly surives 4 shots

I've never seen a 5% bug cause it to survive two extra shells. One, at most, but even that's rare.

umm have you see one latey it took 4 shots at my ff each one hit penetrated and took 15 -20 % health off

The thing has a small cone of fire, bad accuracy, huge scatter and a slow moving shell. I really don't see how it's at all a problem to anyone; it's easy to dodge, and even easier to avoid.
Regardless, it has nothing to do with the GMC.

the M3 is on a weaker and less pathable platform

Deal with it.

[RoyalHants]

I've never seen a 5% bug cause it to survive two extra shells. One, at most, but even that's rare.

well it frequntley survives with low health and you can rarley get a shot on it if he uses it well

The thing has a small cone of fire, bad accuracy, huge scatter and a slow moving shell. I really don't see how it's at all a problem to anyone; it's easy to dodge, and even easier to avoid.

it has good turining speed making circle strafing much harder against tanks it just seems to hi almost everytime and deosent it matter the shell speed ? if it roles a hit your gonna get hit

Regardless, it has nothing to do with the GMC.Deal with it.

so your comparing it to it why then

The Le.IG may have better range/AoE than the M3 GMC

overall the penetration Vs tanks and the fact it flies through buildings are my only kinda gripe

[Illegal_Carrot]

you can rarley get a shot on it if he uses it well

If you get out-played then you get out-played. That's not a balance issue.

it has good turining speed making circle strafing much harder

It has the exact same set-up/pack-up and turning speed as a PaK or any other ATG.

against tanks it just seems to hi almost everytime and deosent it matter the shell speed ?

No, the thing has piss poor accuracy, even against tanks. If you're getting hit then it's because of scatter shots that hit anyways, which are easy enough to dodge due to their slow travel speed.

so your comparing it to it why then

I didn't, Tym did.

overall the penetration Vs tanks and the fact it flies through buildings are my only kinda gripe

Well it combines the perks of a mortar and an ATG into one mini-artillery piece, firing a 75mm shell. Having only played against it, I find it to be useful in its role, but not annoying or OP.

But none of this really has to do with the topic at hand, so this'll be my last post on the Le.IG.

[Unkn0wn]

Thread cleaned, keep the personal attacks out of this, it contributes nothing to the balance discussion.

[Tymathee]

Let's do numbers, since you can't deny those.

75mm GMC
90 dmg
0.4 Penetration (all rangs)
50 Range
.25/.5/1.0 acc
Gets damaged multipliers of
.75 vs ostwind (4.31 penetration)
.6 vs panther  (.517) .9 vs skirted panther (1.0 , this must be an oversight lol)
.6 vs p4 (.94 acc &  .75 pene) same as skirted panther with skirts lol
.6 vs stug (0.8 & .918) skirted same as above
.6 vs tiger (1.37 acc, .37 pene)
.6 .94 and 11.43 vs marder
.6 .85 & .6058 vs hetzer
.75 .8 & 4.31 vs armored car
.65 1 & 10 vs halftrack armor (think same as pe vehicles)

It also uses the same exact HT stats at the M3, so nothing changed there, which poses a problem because Paks do 1.5 dmg vs M3 armor, which only has 315 health so thats a total of 172.5 and if that's a first strike hit that's 215.625 dmg easily two shot.  all u need is one hit by a pak and anything else will easily kill the GMC, which makes it its main enemy because the pak has 60 ranger over the gmcs 50 range and the first strike bonus pretty much always hits, i have rarely seen it miss nor fail to penetrate anything.

LeiG 18
as for as I can tell still uses the 280mm nebel rgd entry
100 dmg
1.0 penetration all ranges
.25/.5/1.0 acc

btw, it does have a faster rotation rate than at guns, which is 75 and the leig has 100 also has faster speed at 4 over 3.5 has 320 health, 20 more than pak @ 300

so looking at allied tanks, it either has a 10 penetration, 100% penetration or .85 (churchill) or .7 (pershing)

find it interesting though that it does .6 damage vs all infantry types
interesting it does .5 acc & dmg vs team weapon type but...the 57mm and pak use the allies_57mm_towed_gun as its armor, i wonder if this makes a difference because against that armor it gets 100% acc and .5 dmg.

95mm Cromwell
95dmg (coincidence? lol)
.25/.34/.5 penetration
.25/.5/1.0 acc

dmg, acc, penetration
.75, 1.11, 4.31 Ostwind
.75, 1.0, .517 panther (same skirted & jagd)
.75, .94, 1.23 p4 (same skirted)
.75, .8, .918 stug (same skirted)
.75, 1.35, .37 Tiger
1.0, 1.0, 1.5 Marder
1.0, 1.0, .675 hetzer
1.0 1.0 1.0 towed gun
.75, .8, 4.31 heavy armored car
.75, 1.0, 4.31 251 HT
1.0, 1.0, 1.0 22x & uni carrier

tbh i dont find anything wrong with the cromwell.

but comparing the LeIG's affectiveness vs the 75mm GMC, which it seems is supposed to have the same weapon, theres just no comparison,

320 mp & 125 fu for the gmc

or

380 mp and 120 mu for the leig

if i had a choice, i'd easily go for the leig, it just gives you more for the cost and since it can tackle all targets exceptionally well unlike the GMC, it makes it more versatile while the fragility of the gmc makes it basically an hmg and house clearer and i'd rather pay for a normal mortar in that sense or heck, an m8 which is cheaper will bring me more effectiveness and survive longer.

I'm done here if this can't convince you that it's either under priced, needs a buff or the leig needs a nerf i dont know what does since this took me over 30 minutes to compile all this information

[Spartan_Marine88]

I've never seen a 5% bug cause it to survive two extra shells.

Actually Carrot, if you had been playing the game more often and listening to other people, i have seen the 5% bug happen 10 times in a row and im not the only one. And it regularly happens about 3 times.

[Tymathee]

Actually Carrot, if you had been playing the game more often and litening to other people, i have seen the 5% bug happen 10 times in a row and im not the only one. And it regularly happens about 3 times.

yup agreed theres, the 5% bug is freakin annoying. relic fixed it, would love to have it switched over to EIR.

[Illegal_Carrot]

i have seen the 5% bug happen 10 times in a row and im not the only one. And it regularly happens about 3 times.

I'm not denying that the 5% bug can occur, and even multiple times in a row, but it's very uncommon. So much so that it has little bearing in balance discussions.

But you know what? It doesn't matter. A 5% bug on a Wehrmacht support weapon has nothing to do with the effectiveness of a US half-track. How many times do I have to say this?

@Tym: It's cool to see that you've crunched the numbers and all, but that's really pointless. There's no point in comparing the Le.IG and the M3, and you're the only one who finds issue with the GMC. If you think it's too fragile, then I suggest you play PE for a bit. Their entire faction consists of half-tracks that get two-shot by everything; once you've played them or a while, you'll have no trouble microing your M3s.

Actually Carrot, if you had been playing the game more often and listening to other people

Also, lol @ this. What is it even supposed to mean?

[Spartan_Marine88]

I'm not denying that the 5% bug can occur, and even multiple times in a row, but it's very uncommon. So much so that it has little bearing in balance discussions.

Actually it is VERY common, and it has huge bearing in Balance discussions as it often changes the entire out come of a tank battle.

[Illegal_Carrot]

Actually it is VERY common, and it has huge bearing in Balance discussions as it often changes the entire out come of a tank battle.

No, it's not as common as you're making it out to be, and here's another thing: it affects all vehicles and weapons equally. There is no factional or doctrinal discretion between what it affects, making it a non-issue.

[Tymathee]

meh its an alright unit. its a support units, tbh its kinda useless from range except to harass.

[Illegal_Carrot]

In that regard, use it like a StuH (or, to a lesser degree, a mortar): engage the enemy from a distance with both infantry and the GMC: if they stay to fight your infantry, they'll get smashed by the GMC; if they retreat out of the GMC's range, they just surrendered all that ground to you.
Due to its fragile nature, you must always screen with some sort of infantry or scout, like you would for an ATG or mortar; never send it after anything alone. It's obviously not like a Sherman that can take a shot or two and shrug it off.

[Mysthalin]

Actually, Illegal - 5 HP bugs are especially prevalent on ATGs, making up a rather impressive 25 percent of all shots taken at 5 HP(straight from the RGDs this part) - which puts the PE, who do not have ATGs and most of whose units do not have the 5 HP bug at all(halftracks most notably) at a very distinct disadvantage compared to the factions that do have the 5 HP bug.


Just another can of worms for you guys to discuss about ;P.

[Illegal_Carrot]

Jesus.

1) The Le.IG and ATGs use the same armor type, meaning they 5% bug the exact same amount. This whole discussion of the Le.IG being tougher than other crew weapons is retarded.

2) No matter how many times it gets brought up, a Wehrmacht Le.IG crewed support weapon 5% bugging still still still still has nothing to do with the American M3 GMC 75mm half-track. Stop bringing it up.

[Spartan_Marine88]

Jesus.

1) The Le.IG and ATGs use the same armor type, meaning they 5% bug the exact same amount. This whole discussion of the Le.IG being tougher than other crew weapons is retarded.

2) No matter how many times it gets brought up, a Wehrmacht Le.IG crewed support weapon 5% bugging still still still still has nothing to do with the American M3 GMC 75mm half-track. Stop bringing it up.

No, you see your missing the big point, its not that the 5% bug has nothing to do with the American HT, it has to do with EVERYTHING, and that means its always relevant.

[Illegal_Carrot]

Nope.

You keep saying 'yes it matters' and not much else. The burden of proof is on you, and yet you've proven nothing at all.

In what in-game situation is the 5% on the Le.IG at all relevant to the performance of the GMC? How is a support weapon at all related to a half-track of a different faction entirely? How is a bug on one at all related to the balance of another?

You're making a lot of noise, but actually saying very little. You're argument consists entirely of 'Nuh-uh I'm right,' and nothing else.

If I thought StuHs were underpowered, I wouldn't start comparing them to 57mms. If I thought Luft 88s were underpowered, I wouldn't start comparing them to 25 Lbrs. Stop making these stupid comparisons.

Now it looks to me like Tym got the resolution he sought when starting this thread, so I've proven my point. Is there anything else you'd like to say on the subject, or are you going to start talking about the infantry crawl bug, too?

[Tymathee]

i still dont like the 75mm gmc, i've taken it out of my company. its more economical to have even a single howitzer over even four of these.