On Fixing PE, with a shoutout to OMG/VCOH 2.301

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[CrazyWR]

I believe that OMG still uses the PE stats from this particular patch.  I could be wrong.  As it is, the thing about PE in OMG/VCOH 2.301 is that it had a nice high damage output.  PE units packed a serious punch, to the point that they were nerfed in future patches.  However, here in EIR, what we have to done to PE is twofold:
1. We have increased PE vehicle durability
2. We have substantially lowered PE vehicle damage output

I am not 100% sure, but I also believe that EIR has weakened PE mainline infantry durability, as well as lowering their damage output.  Something to do with armor types.  I'm not a stats expert, so who knows.  But this is how it feels to me.

PE is my favorite faction.  Has been since I started playing COH online.  Yes, it can be incredibly frustrating losing units to mistakes because they die quickly, but part of the fun with PE was seeing your maneuvering and careful work pay off with something like catching units out of position, hitting them quickly, killing them quickly before they can retaliate and damage you, and getting away.  You took risks, but the reward was there.  Currently, it feels like PE can take as many risks as they like, but they still die, because damage output seems very low, so the current choice is to take units that are as damage-resistant as possible.  Since everything seems to do low damage, you take the units that can survive the longest.

I feel like this is the wrong approach. I think PE needs to be returned to its roots of high risk high reward.  I  realize this is a persistency mod, where units dying means loss of vet, and loss of persistency, and thus durability is prized.  I realize that PE being a high damage faction can lead to some potential for vethunting, rage, and frustration. I also realize that being a high risk faction can make it hard for PE to mesh with the persistency feel of the mod.

However, as it stands now, PE is just not fun.  There are very few builds that can stand up to allies in the way that a great deal of Wehrmacht builds can.  I think, if a re-work is to be done, this is the direction it needs to head.  The shift in PE units began with giving puma armor to halftracks, and has gone from there.  When I play OMG, and use an armored car, I am reminded of the old PE.  The high-damage, incredibly fragile PE.  In OMG, Armored cars can be killed by rifles in cover if you don't pay attention too long.  However, if they catch the rifles in the open, they will slash through them within seconds(two bursts?).  This type of action will promote proper gameplay for PE players.  Try to take advantage of situations, make the enemy pay if he wants to push you back.  However, stupid play will cost you. 

Someone on OMG TS said this, and I believe its true.  PE must be played in one of two ways:
1. As a sort of wave, coming on with a crash, only to gradually fall back again.  AKA, hitting hard, and then giving ground once the enemy comes back at you.
2. Sort of like a boxer with a big punch, but a fragile chin.  AKA you dance around looking for openings, always moving to a different part of the map/ring looking for opportunities to strike but never coming straight at the enemy.


I think we can all agree that attempts to make PE a more durable faction in the frame of the other 3 factions have led to dull gameplay and lack of fun with PE on a general level.  Therefore, in order to make it fun again, I suggest looking to the past and considering the glass cannon days of yore as a viable alternative.  Lets face it, PE will never be durable, any faction that relies on light vehicles is bound to be fragile.  Instead of trying to paper over their weakness and make them blah at everything, why not give them strengths to balance these weaknesses?   

[Dnicee]

good post that i agree with 100%

[tank130]

1. As a sort of wave, coming on with a crash, only to gradually fall back again.  AKA, hitting hard, and then giving ground once the enemy comes back at you.
2. Sort of like a boxer with a big punch, but a fragile chin.  AKA you dance around looking for openings, always moving to a different part of the map/ring looking for opportunities to strike but never coming straight at the enemy.

I agree with this logic. How would you propose doing it so that we don't have this result:

I  realize this is a persistency mod, where units dying means loss of vet, and loss of persistency, and thus durability is prized.  I realize that PE being a high damage faction can lead to some potential for vethunting, rage, and frustration. I also realize that being a high risk faction can make it hard for PE to mesh with the persistency feel of the mod.

You clearly recognize the large negative effects, so how would you balance that?

[Tymathee]

so basically PE should be paper cannons?

I thought they were already paper cannons, its just the abundance of AT in EIR that really puts them at a disadvantage.

Handheld AT and infantry weapons are too prevalent, all their costs should be doubled, make them special and have people use more grenades n stuff.

[8thRifleRegiment]

We need to move away from the tank focused game play that eirr is currently, its boring and redundant. Infantry is where the skill is, where the happening is. Crazy brings up good points, but the underlying issue is that right now, you can get too much of everything. Hordes of Basic infantry is never an issue, becuase one or 2 mgs, problem solves, but its when you can now stack 10-15 ranger sqauds ALONG with 3-4 Jumbos and a significant amount of atgs that you start to see issues.

[nikomas]

NEVER move away from the tank centrist play is what my opinion is, that is what OMG is doing anyway, we don't need the two mods to be the same.

Whatever the solution is, it's not making the game less chaotic, that's part of EiR's charm imo

[CrazyWR]

I agree with this logic. How would you propose doing it so that we don't have this result:


You clearly recognize the large negative effects, so how would you balance that?

Well I agree the negative effects are there, I would argue that positive of having PE as a fun faction again that can compete on an equal level with the other 3 factions outweigh the negatives of making the persistency with PE harder to achieve.  Now, if you disagree, thats fine.  There is one solution PERHAPS that I can come up with, but I'm not sure how realistic it is.  Hopefully others may come up with other options.  This thread is just my attempt at the best possible solution to fix PE. I know not everyone will agree, but I think its a decent option.  Now one possible solution:

1. OMG has a unit in blitz doctrine called a panzer commander or something.  He can get into a tank and provide benefits.  If the tank dies while he is inside, he dies.  But he can get out and get into the next tank.  What I might propose is that each vehicle gets a crew member to provide veterancy rather than the vehicle itself.  However, tie the crew member to the vehicle so that he cannot just jump from one to the next making everything vet3.  Therefore, he starts inside, there is an eject button that causes him to get out and retreat off the map.  This would increase the ability for vehicles to retain veterancy whether they are fragile or not. 

I'm really not sure how to balance that Tank, thats why I didn't really address it.  I realize its a problem.  I'm not sure how to fix it.  But I do think this is the best solution in making PE fun again.

[CrazyWR]

so basically PE should be paper cannons?

I thought they were already paper cannons, its just the abundance of AT in EIR that really puts them at a disadvantage.

Handheld AT and infantry weapons are too prevalent, all their costs should be doubled, make them special and have people use more grenades n stuff.

currently they are simply paper, although reinforced with plastic, and shooting water guns, not cannons.

[taco355]

I'm with crazy on this.

[DarkSoldierX]

Well let me shed some light on what you think to be the case

PE inf is not less durable then before. PE damage output is slightly higher than before.

OMG AC and our AC don't have the differences you speak of. The only thing that makes a AC more cost effective in OMG is the unupgraded inf that runs around. That "high damage output" thats in OMG, we have here.

I am not sure what you mean about substantially lowering PE damage output. IHT suppression is lower than before if thats what you mean. I do disagree with that change, IHTs should be able to do suppress faster given how fragile they are. I am pretty sure OMG followed with that lower suppression change too.

[CrazyWR]

unless you show me concrete numbers, I refuse to believe OMG AC's and our ACs are the same. There's just no way. 

[nikomas]

Ohhh, Meee, Meee! Give me a minute...

[nikomas]

AC - OMG Vs. EiRR, The PE P.I.T.A Showdown!

Stats taken from EiRR RGD's and OMG wiki as OMG is encrypted, those jerks.

As I have no real idea about the exact changes in PE armour between the two mods, but I bet they're pretty damn similar, if anything it's tougher in EiR against small arms from what I've seen so far, but might be wrong.

Vehicle
Health - 260 Equal
Speed/Accel - 7.5/6 Equal


20mm Gun
Damage - 25>30 Equal
Acc L/M/S - .5/.75/.75 Equal
Range L/M/S - 40/20/10 Equal
Burst Duration - 2>2.5 Equal
Rate of Fire - 2 Equal
Cooldown - 3.5>4.5 Equal
Cooldown Multipliers - 1.5/1/1 Equal!!!
Reload/Moving/Penetration - EFFING Equal

Quick glance at target tables, only going to bother with primary target, and only going to list the differences and if not listed they are the same, example inf damage.

Elite - Equal
AB - Equal
Infantry Acc - 1 vs. .75  (Advantage EiRR)
Soldier Dmg - 0.9 vs 1 (Advantage OMG)
Heroic - Equal

Bren/Universal Carrier pen/moving acc - .7/.8 vs. 2.07/1 (Advantage... OMG, these stats make no sense to me!? Go-kart counter?)

Cant be arsed to look at the rest, but really, it hardly matters against vehicles, they both do equally fine against jeeps I guess. When it comes down to it they are pretty much the same.

EiRR AC = Better against US
OMG AC = Better against Brits

But if you're going to moan about this slight difference? Ugh, Honestly, that's a waster 20 minutes of my time, lol

[CrazyWR]

whatever, I stand by my argument

[nikomas]

whatever, I stand by my argument

"I want proof!"
"I have proof!"
"Whatever, I'm still right"

Dafuq man, don't ask for proof if you'll refuse it if it's not in your favor, logic fallacy for the bloody win.

[CrazyWR]

Well, I still think that my argument above is the proper way to fix PE.

[Unkn0wn]

I'm pretty sure the SDT was in agreement on giving PE and (some) other light vehicles multiple repair kits at the purchase of 1. This would make for much more exciting hit and run gameplay with light vehicles. (Which is exactly what we want it to be)

Can't say I entirely agree with your analysis,
1. EIR did not lower PE vehicle damage output, barring some exceptions, heck we even ramped up the suppression on for example the IHT.
2. EIR did buff the survivability of some light vehicles (by changing armour types, mainly) but only because else they would just MELT in any combined arms environment like EIR. (With there always being 2+ pieces of AT on the field from any player)

We are always keeping pace with the vCOH patches though (or were for a very long time), so if they nerfed some units in vCOH they were usually nerfed in EIR as well. (Unless we had some very good reasons not to) But needless to say, it wasn't a concious 'EIR decision' to make those changes at the time.

[nikomas]

I'm pretty sure the SDT was in agreement on giving PE and other light vehicles multiple repair kits at the purchase of 1. This would make for much more exciting hit and run gameplay with light vehicles.

By this I hope you mean splitting 1 kit into several small ones? Having several normal kits on one car sounds... well, yeah.

[Unkn0wn]

I mean it would have multiple uses, not necessarily smaller ones. Though it may require us to re-evaluate the durability of some of the platforms. And it may not affect light vehicles like the M8 or the Puma, AC, etc. It's primarily aimed at scout units and half-track type units (which means primarily PE halftracks) The idea is that these units are too fragile to remain in sustained fire for long, so they should be able to more reliably perform hit-and-run operations. With IHTs for example this is incredibly fun gameplay but currently nigh impossible in your average EIR game.


I believe a problem with the PE currently, in EIR, is that they are neither really durable, mobile, nor particularly hard-hitting.

Lastly, the reason why PE vehicles may perform diffently in OMG is simply because it's a different environment with different starting resources. There's a much higher amount of infantry than in EIR, and less vehicles overall. Less infantry usually also means there's less for these AI vehicles to kill. Not to mention the skill difference, you may just happen to find yourself in games where players don't use cover and just throw hordes of infantry at your AC in the open.

[tank130]

Less tanks : less AT
We need to make tanks and light vehicles more rare & precious. We can then adjust the values for PE so they can perform their intended role.
PE is struggling due to the excessive at on the field.