88's artyllery barrage [Artyllery experts]

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[DeutscherStahl]

And your idea would have been a completely overpowered company, as I detailed in the post above.

If you want artillery support use nebels or Stukas - both are EXTREMELY effective with the damage boost provided. 88s only take up 220 fuel, that leaves you 1000 fuel for your infantry-focused, light StuG support, artillery support.

[Mysthalin]

provides a counter to the 88s cheapest decrew method, a Mortar.

Except that it doesn't. Mortars only take out 88s if they're behind a building or a hedge, neither of which howitzer-type artilery can reliably fire over.

[Baine]

You know that smoke is deadly to the 88 right. Pop smoke on it, rangers go in and kill it. The fastest and most effective way.

[DeutscherStahl]

@Myst: if they're behind any shotblocker in the game, not just a building. And hiding behind hedges won't save a mortar from artillery. At worst case scenario you miss, destroy the hedge, and kill it with the 88s gun normally. Hedges aren't even solid choices to hide behind because the 88 can hammer them anyways.

[DeutscherStahl]

You know that smoke is deadly to the 88 right. Pop smoke on it, rangers go in and kill it. The fastest and most effective way.

Uh, no, this is something that's called DEFENDING YOUR 88. Popping smoke on the 88 does nothing to its support. But you apparently don't support your 88?

And rangers are doc-specific. Only 2/6 allied doctrines get assault infantry to attack 88s with.

[Unkn0wn]

Buildings and treegroves are practically the only reliable shotblocker against flaks.

[Computer991]

And now you guys start arguing over me asking for a range buff to the 88 ability that makes it actually better.
Did you see what kind of buffs the howitzer gets in the infantry doctrine? If i would use your logic then that should be immediately changed because it buffs the howitzer and there are so many other good buffs to rifles and rangers and even atgs!

Wasn't it you who said factions shouldn't mirror eachother? ? If not my bad i don't feel like finding a quote right now.

[Sixpack]

And your idea would have been a completely overpowered company, as I detailed in the post above.

If you want artillery support use nebels or Stukas - both are EXTREMELY effective with the damage boost provided. 88s only take up 220 fuel, that leaves you 1000 fuel for your infantry-focused, light StuG support, artillery support.

I would like too see this theory proved correct and:
Nebs would be ok but can not do heavy lifting, range sucks.
Stukas do not work in my themed company.
And 88s die fast. (then again the people that used em placed them far too close to the frontline.)

[Baine]

Wasn't it you who said factions shouldn't mirror eachother? ? If not my bad i don't feel like finding a quote right now.

What did i say that makes the factions mirror each other?

Uh, no, this is something that's called DEFENDING YOUR 88. Popping smoke on the 88 does nothing to its support. But you apparently don't support your 88?

Your support won't be able to do shit. Rangers and airbornes have fireup. No use to suppress them.
Also smoking the 88 and then moving up all kind of shit, like atgs and infantry and a mg to hold down the support.
I don't consider myself someone who doesn't know how to protect the 88 so i should probably know the weaknesses all too well because i have seen it happen.

[Mysthalin]

@Myst: if they're behind any shotblocker in the game, not just a building. And hiding behind hedges won't save a mortar from artillery. At worst case scenario you miss, destroy the hedge, and kill it with the 88s gun normally. Hedges aren't even solid choices to hide behind because the 88 can hammer them anyways.

And this disproves me how? You're basically agreeing with me that if the mortar would die to the 88 barrage, it would die to the 88 direct fire just as well. Treegroves? I've sniped 7 of Misten's riflemen in a row by shooting through one with attack ground while the riflemen were moving. Think one wouldn't be able to do the same to kill a mortar, which is a much easier to hit target than the spread out rifleman squad?

[DeutscherStahl]

You're basically agreeing with me that if the mortar would die to the 88 barrage, it would die to the 88 direct fire just as well.

No, I'm not. There are plenty of indestructible shotblockers that artillery can kill a mortar over.

[Mysthalin]

You're basically agreeing with me that if the mortar would die to the 88 barrage, it would die to the 88 direct fire just as well.

No, I'm not. There are plenty of indestructible shotblockers that artillery can kill a mortar over.

Name one that's not a hedge and not a building. Treegroves don't count as you can fire through them.

[DeutscherStahl]

Uh, let's see, every shotblocker in the game that's not a building or hedge?

[lionel23]

Which is what exactly?  That's the only two real shot blockers in the game, unless you have some weird hill like on that one map with the 3 bridges and a river down the middle that has that 'castle ruin' on the right middle hill which you apparently can't 'see' down off of, for whatever reason.

The only other thing would be the thick MASS of trees that appears on some maps, and even then you can still shoot through them most of the time (example would be the trees in the middle of that 4v4 vCOH map Hockwald Gap, which infantry can shoot through to attack but can't move through).

Tree groves on the other hand you can shoot through, if you mean the orchards that are say next to the Church on Schjindel for example.

[NightRain]

in EIRR Defencive has:

Stuka
Officer
88.

In VCoH:
88.

So in short:

Defencive's special unit IS the 88 and it only gets 1 buff which is: 105m range of barrage. Imo while this looks beautiful on the paper it was sort of a disappointment when I saw it in action. Direct hit on a MG and they didn't get even a scratch. Not to mention its accuracy ain't the best one even if the second shell tends to come down homing.

Little bit of range increase wouldn't do harm, only good for the 88.

In theory 88 gets two buffs. T4 Omniscience for spotting purposes to maximize the use of 88's range but that works as long as one has a bike and/or units on the frontline to spot for it.

[DeutscherStahl]

Defencive's special unit IS the 88 and it only gets 1 buff which is: 105m range of barrage.

There is a difference between having a special unit (every single doctrine has special units) and having a bunch of shit focus on it. Defensive's focus is DEFENSE, hence why it is called DEFENSIVE. It is not called FlaK36 or THIS COMPANY HAS 88MM FLAKS.

[Mysthalin]

And commandos should theoretically be about commandos, but thus-far in every implementation of EiR they've been about tommy spam.

Defensive isn't just about being defensive - one of the best indications of this is volks with grenades, which are quite an offensive weapon. It has become, as smokaz has said - the artillery doctrine of EiR, not a defensive one.

[lionel23]

@ Nightrain - Defensive has the defensive officer, 88, and stuka... that's 3 things unique to defensive. Also, the artillery special ability is to allow it to counter things that could hide behind shot blockers (ruined buildings for example) and defend itself from some indirect attacks. We give it any more range, it'll make wehr mortars useless for them and you do forget the recharge timer I believe is shorter for the 88, while dedicated artillery we're looking at I believe 300 seconds for them, while the 88 is a 180 seconds recharge.

The 88's advantage is that it can fire more 'fire missions' sooner than the dedicated artillery, but at the expensve of amount of shells. Sides, howitzers have the problem of firing say 4-6 shots and the enemy moving away after the first or second shot, so the 88s 3 shots is pretty much the bare minimum of either nailing the target or it walking away. And artillery itself is hit or miss (I've love to see you snipe me with a neb and make all the shells hit me dead on).

If you want better artillery, you have the common neb that is available to all Wehr factions to supplement your semi arty 88 that is also outstanding in locking out whole areas of the map from armor and can cause hurt to infantry too (with proper scouting).

[Baine]

I think we are done here. Unknown already said they will look into the range thing. So no need for any more "discussion".

[Killer344]

Yeah, good call.