Hummels firepower make up for it's speed?

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[Smokaz]

LOL.. irony

[Igawa]

because with great wehrmacht players against a noobteam even his hummel crippled pe team can pull a win off with him sitting in the back and constantly shelling the map

You mean like a stinkin Ami player? or a Limey?

[Scyntos]

Or stukas which can take down houses in one shot,  or nebels which can clear out a house in one shot.

Did he really just say that? I can't ever recall a time where a stuka has leveled a house.. or when a nebel has made me get out of a house from burning.

It's kind of like where he said, "The Hummel gets 100% accuracy, BUT all artillery can fire out of it's max range." Tym likes to include little BS lines like this when he could be wrong. You can't cover up stupid, Tym. Btw.. show me an artillery piece that can fire outside it's max range and doesn't move to get into the firing ring.

[Smokaz]

Nebels can KO a house in one barrage depending on the house type and ALL of its rockets hitting, but its not very likely to happen at medium-long range.

[Mysthalin_Axis]

Scyn - nebels do lucky criticals to instantly gib squads in houses. Stukas do quite good structural damage, but not enough to be worth it...
The hummel is absolute crap - even with LOS and within the yellow circle it can't hit the designated target, takes ages to vet up, and is just rather fail. Good thing it doesn't take too long to recharge.

[Scyntos]

Still.. that aside.. I've never gotten out of a house or died while in a house to a nebel.

[gamesguy1]

Scyn makes a valid point.

Because PE lacks HMG's and in general force multiplying AI, they can't protect things like the hummel. A single HMG and a double shreck in vicinity would be enough generally. Because of how PE works, it isn't. Firstly the double isn't viable. Secondly the HMG doesn't exist. What do you use to stop a ranger squad or AB squad? You need at least 2 FJ to kill the AB before they kill the hummel, then if a tetrach drops you need a double shreck and a marder most likely to ensure it doesn't kill the hummel before the return fire kills it. That's 23 pop of defence, combined with the 10 or is it 11pop hummel? 34 pop all tied up in an artillery unit, now whilst the hummel itself may be useful, protecting it is hard.

So you're left with some options:

Far away and hope it isn't attacked/near spawn
Close up to benefit from support of troops but at a breakthrough it dies
Mid range, probably the worst idea.

G43 slow and move the hummel away?  Not exactly an expensive investment.  Also I'd park the hummel the same place I'd park a priest, somewhat behind your own lines but close enough for your long ranged AT units like marders to cover your hummel like this:
your infantry --- marder/AT ---  Hummel
|                           |                     |

You only need 30 pop tied up in protecting a hummel if you want to lose.

Now, the reality is that axis lacks as many behind the lines killy stuff as allies do. So axis artillery is more vulnerable in general.

Options I see, capable of taking down a howitzer are quite risky and ineffective, bear in mind you need to destroy it, not just decrew.

You can only do this with stormtroopers (short of forcing the enemy from the field).

That is the same, whether it's a priest, howitzer or calliope, although with the latter it is far harder.

The issue really, isn't whether axis artillery is better/worse. It is more so how survivable it is. It is less survivable and ironically not even due to its speed or weak armour etc. But due to the options allies have for countering it. It is for this reason, that veteran axis players (for the majority) don't make extensive usage of heavy or medium artillery, relying more often upon mortars.

Howtizer is extremely easy to take down, I used to do it in EIR with ninja pumas.  I've done it in EIRR with ninja grenadiers.   They are static and extremely vulnerable to mortar HTs as well.   You don't need freaking stormtroopers.   Just some mobile AT and walk around the map edge to avoid contact.

Barring that, shreks in a car work just as well, if not better than an M10, as they don't have the fucked up target priority of an M10 where it would target a MG over a hummel.

Speaking of M10s, it works better at hummel killing than tets.  M10s do way more damage and fires faster.   You cannot drop tets behind enemy lines anyways because its really easy to kill a glider before it can spawn the unit.  A clown car with shreks work better than tets as well.

The reason the hummel is weaker atm is not due to allies' ability to kill it.  The reason its weaker is due to the insane superiority of the mortar HT and the crap mortar pit which basically forces allies to rely less on weapon teams.  Like 90% of all wehr players atm just spam support weapons with tanks because allies have a hard time countering that, the reverse is not true.   Hummels and priests are mostly support weapon killers.  A player with decent micro can easilly move infantry and tanks out of the way after you hear the barrage fire, barring any lucky stray shots.   This is why the hummel is weaker, because axis mortars are too good, forcing the allied metagame to rely on mobile units like infantry and tanks rather than support weapons, which is the hummel's primary target.

[MannfredvonRitter]

You didn't even answer what I said, you just followed me around and did what you always do in response to my posts, troll.

The whole setup you have is naturally vulnerable to other things, such as rangers or airborne but I won't go into the constant theorycraft war.

Well the ease at which you can cost effectively destroy a howitzer depends upon the callibre of your opponants doesn't it? They can counter any visible unit moving towards the howitzer and they tend to have at least a scouting unit of some sort keeping an eye on their investment.

The reality is as everyone else has also agree with/said. The Allies do have more options for fighting behind the lines and as such the hummel is more liable for death.

I'm also quite certain your setup corresponds to what I stated as 'close' to lines but vulnerable in a breakthrough. In your mind I'm a nub but I've constantly and consistently killed hummels of good players, so what does that say? Hummels are about the easiest mobile artillery to kill.

[MannfredvonRitter]

Still.. that aside.. I've never gotten out of a house or died while in a house to a nebel.

Nebel direct hits can 'crit' on a house and insta kill the squad inside.

[Malevolence]

You didn't even answer what I said, you just followed me around and did what you always do in response to my posts, troll.

He voiced a valid opinion with circumstantial evidence in a proper and well-supported manner, just like you did. Any more personal attacks are going straight to a mod, calm yourself down.

Not to get in on this myself, but in regards to this also -

The whole setup you have is naturally vulnerable to other things, such as rangers or airborne but I won't go into the constant theorycraft war.

G43 slow can stop fireup'd troops pretty consistently, I'd say, whereas a machine gun as you would prefer cannot. I honestly think G43 slow is a superior defense against elite infantry hummel rapers compared to a machine gun.

[sgMisten]

Still.. that aside.. I've never gotten out of a house or died while in a house to a nebel.

Happens so often to me that I *always* unload infantry from a house.

[Smokaz]

Try combining a g43 with a mg42, there you have a real elite inf killer. Pop slow on the advancing squad and redeploy your 42 if hes already too close. He either pulls back or gets raped by the 42. Especially if you have your g43 in front so that you give your mg maximum range to start with. You can do this as PE with terror reinforcements or even cheaper as wehr with PG reinforcements (munitions-wise) or just with a teammate having the other unit of the pair. I use this in the Tiger Ace of fail replay and in previous games, its pretty solid. Even with a expensive mg42 from doing PE + wehr, it still equals out to the same amount of munitions as a thomspon upgrade and you are likely to come out on top with more guys left on both the mg and the g43 squad. Pssst: Its not theory crafting if it has been tested, then its a disputed claim if you think its untrue.

[Tymathee]

Still.. that aside.. I've never gotten out of a house or died while in a house to a nebel.

Happens so often to me that I *always* unload infantry from a house.

lol agreed. I lost 3 hmgs in one game to nebel's.

[gamesguy1]

You didn't even answer what I said, you just followed me around and did what you always do in response to my posts, troll.

It is you who are trolling.  I posted a reasonable reply with points supporting my argument, and yet you resort to personal attacks on the first post, reported.

The whole setup you have is naturally vulnerable to other things, such as rangers or airborne but I won't go into the constant theorycraft war.

Did you even read my post?  G43 slow is by far a better counter to rangers and airborne than an HMG.

Well the ease at which you can cost effectively destroy a howitzer depends upon the callibre of your opponants doesn't it? They can counter any visible unit moving towards the howitzer and they tend to have at least a scouting unit of some sort keeping an eye on their investment.

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=8417.0

Ninja grenadiers destroying a 25lber against smokaz/mukip.   A scouting unit is wasted if it sits there guarding a howitzer, it doesnt give you enough warning to save something that cant move and is usually far behind your own lines.   Vampire HT is one possible exception due to its enormous infantry awareness radius.

The reality is as everyone else has also agree with/said. The Allies do have more options for fighting behind the lines and as such the hummel is more liable for death.

Uh, everyone?   Where is this everyone? 

I'm also quite certain your setup corresponds to what I stated as 'close' to lines but vulnerable in a breakthrough. In your mind I'm a nub but I've constantly and consistently killed hummels of good players, so what does that say? Hummels are about the easiest mobile artillery to kill.

Then it should be easy to post a replay right?