Elite Infantry way too many!

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[Smokaz]

If you remove oversupply, you'll have no freedom with your regular units. 12 rifles really aint that much if you wanna run a rifle spam company.. there's also no end of war madness where some people with a lot of pps have 12 mg42s in their company etc just for lolz. Some units are just too good if you oversupply them however, thats why the cost for doing so has to be ridicolous. Removing oversupply entirely takes away all the funny or interesting companies, its a easy way out leaving everyone with fewer options. That idea can kiss my big shiny spammy ass.

A 20 flamer company wouldnt be OP, it would just be funny.. you'll murder that baby before its even born if you remove oversupply completely.

You can also bet your grandma's silver that two vet 3 20 pp elite infantry units would be retreating fast if they got pinned and arty flare dropped on them, or a a sniper was on the field with only 1 guy RR guy left even if he could beat a ostwind by himself. So even if someone was able to buy extra elite inf at the end of the war, they would still have to be deeply cared for.

[BigDick]

it is very easy to deal with that problem

oversupply is good and needed to have the freedom for different companies

the PP costs for oversuppling is good but there is one fail in the system

other than vehicles or basic infantry the elite infantry will almost always make it out of a battle alive when you are no retard

so this PP system for oversupplying fails because you pay the PP just one time because you barely loose anything of this kind of units

if there would be e.g. 4 elite infantry in reserve some in supply but only 1 squad elite inf @ basic price and each additional squad increase their ressource costs by 10% people can use much elite infantry but they will get less cost effective with each additional squad (e.g. second squad 110% MP and 110% mun third 120%MP 120%mun 4th 130%MP 130%mun)

that would make the elite infantry still useful but give you some downside if your company consists almost only out of elite infantry

[Blitzen]

The only thing that bothers me about elite inf, is when you're fighting two armoured players.  And you still have to face 2 roving blobs of airborne....

[Talas]

About the cost BidDick, nice idea. Hard to implenent I think thou :O

I'm still up for the pop-cap option, makes elites little harder but increase pop cap with 1, removes blobs due to odd numbers (hard to combine like first call-in with elite inf., as with super heavy tanks) and pop-cap is a price itself.

Noone is complaining about sniper pop-cap, its good for what it does, same may go with elite inf.


And for vet. If we're going to make elites better I say not by vet. New players should be able to use elites too, and since we got procentual boost with vet. stronger base gives more bonuses. And how can you have elite troops and elite elite crack troops? Vet. should make things elite, the base should.

[Smokaz]

The way I would have wanted it implemented would be that the base unit wasn't very cost-effective making a rebuy less wanted than retaining the vet. You would still win games with great use of these elite infantry units, but it would be less feasible to win it through their mere presence.
At vet 0 they would start out fairly expensive for their power yet and then gaining actual very good cost-effectiveness at vet 3 .

But hey in the end its all about what the devs and eirrmod think elite infantry should be. They have a plan and its probably a lot better than the current implementation. We can make suggestions and point out problems as we perceive them, but if they want elite infantry to be a certain way thats how EIRR is gonna be.

[Talas]

Should u have a relative better chance of winning by vetted elite inf. then say, vetted basic inf.? Use be4 vet. imo.

[Demon767]

it sounds all sweet on paper, but the thing is, when someone has vet 3 airborne (just a name out of a hat) and they know what there doing with them, they wont lose them, and due to the strength increase in vet they will be so much stronger, it may take a little longer to spam out, but sooner or later it will be spammed out.

Think of it in this way if you cant understand that.

My company is fully upgraded how i like it, i have airborne buffs for my RRs etc, i also have 4 RRs and 4 bars but since ive been playing for awhile and i know what im doing, i wont lose them, but what if i lose one of my airborne, ive been palying long enough and i have a good 125 pp in my pool, i wouldnt even think twice about buying more, because i wont be loosing them every single game.

and to prove this fact abit more, my PE account, roughly 80-100 games i played with it, ive still have my 2 FJ's from when i started the company fromthe get go, ive only lost roughly 5 (meaning ive only lost 40 pp) Fjs through my time playing, and that was only at the end of my career as a PE player.

Although smokaz with your idea + Biddicks cost increase every time you buy a vetted unit it could turn out nicely.

thats my opinion, im gladly waiting for a reply.

[Smokaz]

It will be quantity versus quality. One bad move or unlucky arty shot against your expensive elites, and they are out of the equation while a guy using more numerous basic infantry will keep on truckin'. You'd be vulnerable to snipers, artillery, vehicle crush. Thats why their veterancy would have to be freaking godly. You'd feel the pain of a well executed vet hunt, but you'd also have fun raping his basic shit if you could optimize the conditions your elites fight under (supressed inf, dodging around corners against tanks).

Elite infantry would still retain their original weaknesses. Flamers would burn them, supressing rangers/ab a 2nd time after fireup would mean retreat or die, tanks would still crush mp44 storms, slow would still get airborne killed, fallschirms would still be gibbed by shermans. But their veterancy would be so powerful that you'd need to subdue them by supression, flanks or other tricks to negate their combat superiority.

The powerful new veterancy for them would have retain their weaknesses.  Lets take airborne and fallschirmjagers:

Fallschirmjaegers (1.0)
-Vet1 Received damage 0.85
-Vet2 Accuracy 1.15, Received Accuracy 0.9, Sprint Ability, Additional Panzerfaust use
-Vet3 Health 1.1, Assault Bonus*, Damage 1.2,

Could turn into:

Fallschirmjaegers (1.0)
-Vet1 Received damage 0.85, Regeneration (0.028)
-Vet2 Accuracy 1.3, Received Accuracy 0.85, Sprint Ability, Additional Panzerfaust use
-Vet3 Health 1.3, Assault Bonus*, Cover Bonus*, Damage 1.3

As for ab:

Airborne (1.0)
-Vet1 Received damage 0.80 (is going to be fixed to 0.85 soon I think)
-Vet2 Accuracy 1.15, Received Accuracy 0.9, Fireup -30s
-Vet3 Health 1.1, Cover ability*, Damage 1.2, Fireup -30s

Could be turned into:

Airborne (1.0)
-Vet1 Received damage 0.85, Received Accuracy 0.9, Regeneration (0.018) *to compensate for the fact that healing is better for bigger squads
-Vet2 Accuracy 1.25, Received Accuracy 0.9, Fireup -35s
-Vet3 Health 1.2, Cover ability*, Cooldown 0.85, Fireup -35s

Axis veterancy and allied veterancy have been adjusted for the idea that say maybe you could only have 3 FSJ squads but 4 ab squads to keep the idea of many allies against few hardened axis. These are just examples though, but a vet 3 fsj with 1.3 health and 1.3 damage would be rape on legs. Shermans will still one shot them though, a ab gets nothing that help them survive close range weapons (since these will have so high accuracy against them any way or deal splash ((flamers) damage.)

and to prove this fact abit more, my PE account, roughly 80-100 games i played with it, ive still have my 2 FJ's from when i started the company fromthe get go, ive only lost roughly 5 (meaning ive only lost 40 pp) Fjs through my time playing, and that was only at the end of my career as a PE player.

Be honest with yourself. Wouldn't you agree that a lot of games you have played could have turned out differently if you had used your FSJ better and not have them retreated at full health will all members left? You as a example is a bit skewed, as I've got to assume you don't play too differently in games against each other and you are extremely careful with their veterancy, something that probably cost you a lot of games which would be annoying for you when warmap was implemented and the newspaper page had a paragraph like this: "General Demon loses yet another game, and is now on a 10 lose streak" next to "Most experienced Fallschirmjagers in the War" (a leaderboard news post): "a interview with Demon's 1254 xp fallschirmjagers". Hell, you're even known as the guy who retreats from smoke barrages.

This is exactly the risk you would be taking by getting these elite units. A bad move or getting caught in a trap means retreat to preserve them, a problem a guy lighter on expensive specialists and heavier on basic units does not face.

 

[spinn72]

it sounds all sweet on paper, but the thing is, when someone has vet 3 airborne (just a name out of a hat) and they know what there doing with them, they wont lose them, and due to the strength increase in vet they will be so much stronger, it may take a little longer to spam out, but sooner or later it will be spammed out.

Think of it in this way if you cant understand that.

My company is fully upgraded how i like it, i have airborne buffs for my RRs etc, i also have 4 RRs and 4 bars but since ive been playing for awhile and i know what im doing, i wont lose them, but what if i lose one of my airborne, ive been palying long enough and i have a good 125 pp in my pool, i wouldnt even think twice about buying more, because i wont be loosing them every single game.

and to prove this fact abit more, my PE account, roughly 80-100 games i played with it, ive still have my 2 FJ's from when i started the company fromthe get go, ive only lost roughly 5 (meaning ive only lost 40 pp) Fjs through my time playing, and that was only at the end of my career as a PE player.

Although smokaz with your idea + Biddicks cost increase every time you buy a vetted unit it could turn out nicely.

thats my opinion, im gladly waiting for a reply.

Good point here.  Those falls retreated at first sight of my croc lol.  I don't even think twice when i oversupply on units, even when i use my 2nd croc.  boo hoo i might get 1 pp for the game i get, but when you consider the supply options, you can generally lose 5 in supply squads in a game and break even, or an elite tank and a couple of inf squads.  

I'm thinking there should only be in Reserve and Oversupply, where Oversupply costs heaps of PP and forces you to recognise if you have to oversupply again, you will have to play much more conservatively.  Maybe try 4pp per extra squad and 7pp per extra tank, and then people will start losing PP because they want to go crazy on their PIATs/Falls/Airborne etc.

[Demon767]

Yes i do agree, ive could of done alot more with my FJ's, its just because they are so delicate, and i kno once again im comparing to allies im sry for this, the airborne are a much better platform to survive on, you can have a 3 man airborne or ranger squad fitted with zooks, RR what have you, and still cause some awesome damage. Its just with those awesome Damage counters at vet, if they stack on the projectiles, RR,Zooks,Shreks etc than they will do to much damage apart from storms,kch,falls, one sherman can get just in range of them and kill 2 of them in one blow half of your squad done for. if so you will than need to increase damage done by fausts when increasing in vet (which is abit harder to code correct?)

and yes i do agree i could of done more if i didnt baby sit my FJ's. but ^ thats why i needed, in my own opinion, have to baby sit my FJs, but i believe i can use them better now as ive gotten better micro.

and i guess non of this really helps this thread.

i think we need to think if these Awesome vets get spammed out in huge numbers

[Bubz2]

2 roving blobs of airborne....

or two squads?
I've rarely seen more than 3-4 wounded squads together (with an average of two rr's squads fielded together), unless it's the starting airborne raid someone does in the beginning of the game, but that's the fun thing about airbornes, since the whole doctrine is designed to only buff airbornes and you gotta play with lots of them.

[CafeMilani]

play vs unknownz 

[BigDick]

It will be quantity versus quality. One bad move or unlucky arty shot against your expensive elites, and they are out of the equation while a guy using more numerous basic infantry will keep on truckin'. You'd be vulnerable to snipers, artillery, vehicle crush. Thats why their veterancy would have to be freaking godly. You'd feel the pain of a well executed vet hunt, but you'd also have fun raping his basic shit if you could optimize the conditions your elites fight under (supressed inf, dodging around corners against tanks).

no more vet whores please

we have currently enough bad players hoarding vet3 rangers, vet3 commandos, vet3 storms and vet3 falls instandly retreating when one man is dead

we have enough godd player high vet companies that can steamroll every new company using massive amount of ressource advantages and hoards of vet units

buff the vet of elite units to make them even stronger? that would be exactly the opposite what would lower the amount and power of elite hoards....

vet is good as it is currently....
it give you noticeable buffs at each level (maybe some units could be tweaked) and turns your units to a quarter superman and not a full superman

why getting a combined arms company when you can run around with hoards of vet3 elite infantry that kicks ass because it gets huge benefits for veting up? kicking ass units that actually are very easy to vet up already

to balance "spam" of units can be done with pp as long as units die often in a battle...

stats tweaks and nerfing of elite infantry will be lead into uselessness of the units....

to make them to expensive will lead into that we do not see them on battlefield anymore....

to raise their price for each additional doctrine elite infantry will lead us exactly to were we want to get

this infantry will be used for special tasks and when they are spamed they get less cost effective...

so every commando player will get commandos but not every player get the max reserve or even oversupplied because the first squads are very cost effective...and spaming raise their price....just use them for their special tasks

[Ununoctium]

if we simply let elite inf go from in supply to expensive oversupply we solve the problem.

Buy the extras for a lot and the starters are free

No hassle and no removeing what you already have.
you can still have an 8 AB company or 6 storms but you'll have to pay command twice as much  for the extras.

[Dnicee]

Dont understand what is the problem...as soon someone finds a new good company build up, after his first game there is a thread in the forum how wrong it is and op and imba and so on...

Dont see the point of forceing ppl to play with a balanced company.. If the want to put all their resources in one thing why dont we just let them!

It creates more variety to the game!

Dont take it away from us! 
 

[Aggamemnon]

I meant on "elite" infantry only (and things like KT etc.)

Specifically, I think the main problem is that you can get a re-inforcements pack with the elite inf you want, then oversupply them as much as you like.
Re-inforcements should be just that, a small selection of utility units (elite or not).

I like oversupply as a limiter, but re-inforcements needs it's oversupply taken off.