Jagd Challenge

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[Mysthalin]

Too long didn't read.

[Sach]

I have no idea what this is about but I will take the option for a two jagd company

[lionel23]

Maybe it was the absolute best dice rolls, but I'm saying it did happen with me, Velo, Jodo/May (one of em) and LittleHillBilly (who lives in a different time zone than me and whom I haven't seen since that game after he got ticked off how ineffective AP rounds are).

Now yes maybe I need to tone it down a little, and sorry if I'm trolling or anything (in response to another thread that was directed at me I believe), but I do not once like the fact I'm told I'm simply wrong because I PLAYED that game, and witnessed and experienced it first hand, so to say that I'm wrong that a game didn't happen when it did is absurd to me.

And Ground, I have no issues with Axis heavies, and KT's are somewhat bearable due to slow speed, but we're talking the Jadg specifically here.  And perhaps also Ground that the pro axis players aren't play equally skilled or higher pro axis teams.  If you and Elite Gren and Jinkers and Fallen/Smokaz were all on the allied team, I can't imagine who could possibly join that game as axis to equally counterstack.  And I've won my fair share of games and played EIR and COH long enough to know I'm better than the average person, but I'm no elite pro who can get an easy 22 win / 1 loss record like you guys, so I'll concede you're better than me overall.

But when you play games as allies and all you fight are terror/tank hunters/blitz companies and nothing else, and nothing but multiple super heavies come rolling out WITH support of some kind (cause only the newest of players use it by itself with absolutely no support to cover its weaknesses), it's just like pre-wipe where everyone in their mother was fielding and exploiting the one man LMG gren to counter all allied infantry and one man shrek blobs to blow away allied ATGs and shermans.  If allies could do something like that, then I wouldn't be here complaining.

And we did have airborne for the record, like I said we had Infantry Rangers and Shermans (myself), mass ATG (I think HillBilly was Infantry too), Airborne RR (Velocity) and m10/Shermans (I believe this was Jodo or May before they wiped their account). The situation was admittedly in an enclosed area at 40m just because the jadgs came thru a hedge and sat in the opening so it was impossible to flank and all that combined firepower failed to push them back or deter them from not sitting there and sniping the entire allied force.  And also take into accounts not every Sherman hit or ATG shot actually hits too Mys, maybe things would have been diffferent if the allies had 100% accuracy, but missed shots don't add to the chance to penetrate either *shrug*

[Groundfire]

my allied co. is like 6/5/1 (w/l/d) but whateves.

so the axis pros stack like bitches, doesnt mean you have to play them. Pick you fights, and play when it's equal.

Im looking at the other threads and seeing sensible posts by smokaz/EG/shockcoil/Fallensoldier, saying things along the lines to "trick the jadg, surround and sticky", "back cap, superheavies are pop sinks", "kill the support around the heavy, force it to fight alone", or "you just got to chip away at the health, it's stupid to think you can kill a jadg in that short amount of time". (very true btw)

all of which are valid ways or taking down super heavies. As I read these statements, I say to myself, "yes, I do all of these, and they work! if they dont that means my team got outplayed".

When I read one of your posts, lionel, all i seem to see is "I NEED TANK REAPERS OTHERWISE I CANNOT WIN." That's balancing with a sledgehammer instead of a scapal. (and it sounds childish that you choose not to learn and employ effective counter measures to fight jadgs)

The only thing i think needs to be changed bout super heavies is to limit companies to 1, and that's being done.

btw, If you know ATGs wont penetrate a jadg from the front, then why do you sit there and let it get shot. If it does get shot, move it back to heal and dont engage untill the fight is in your favor.

[lionel23]

I've done the whole backcapping thing or going around or crippling said super heavies, which usually works well for a KT and the like but Jadgs have speed and are thus able to move to a new front very quickly unlike a KT.  And I'm sorry Groundfire if you can't bother to read my posts well, but I have said more than tank reapers as the current unlocks for the tourney have T1-T2 unlocks against several companies with T3 unlocks, which is why some of the allied docs for this tourney need to be brought up in line.

Learn to read Groundfire.

[Groundfire]

I have read them all and that's what it boils down to. whether you think so or not is irrelevant.

You want a T4 doctrinal buff to fight T3 unit unlocks, when armor and airborne co. gets it's T3s, and you get nothing b/c you always play infantry always.

You dont need it.

what does it matter if the jadg can change flanks in little time? it still has only a 40% of hitting a back capping riflemen. 32% if that riflemen is vet1 with a no splash main cannon. Id be more worried of other things going back there to stop the back capping.

[lionel23]

Oh is it irrelevant?  And regardless if you can't read and understand them makes your point irrelevant too then.

And everyone knows Tank Reapers does not turn bazookas into rapesauce.  They still can't penetrate frontal armor like RRs but makes their accuracy and flanking damage bearable (god, we still got to use tactics with TR unlike no skill Super Heavy tanks).

And a Jadg can run over infantry due to its excessively high speed quite well, almost like an M10 does against infantry (I personally use m10s like cromwells, and sometimes they end up killing infantry way faster and better than shermans if used properly), its not the main gun that matters for tank destroyer classes against inf but the actual tank itself.  Anyone who uses a TD's gun against infantry may as well use BARs against a Tiger's frontal armor and see how long it takes to do damage (translate: forever).

[Baine]

(god, we still got to use tactics with TR unlike no skill Super Heavy tanks).

Good luck trying to get one past Vet 1 with that ...

Also not all doctrines should be able to destroy other doctrines. Some doctrines lack power against others, that's why it is a teamgame.

I haven't read the whole thread, infact i only read the last posts above mine. Flame me, I'm freezing anyways!

[lionel23]

Nahh that's all right Baine, why would we flame someone as awesome as you, man?

Sides this thread has gone on long enough anyway, heh.

[Mysthalin]

If we consider the panther/jagdpanther/Hetzer/Stug tank destroyers, than I can, from personal experience, say that they're great at killing infantry with the main gun. Actually, I'd even rather take the Hetzer over the Jagd in sheer anti-infantry duty, holding it on par with a sherman at that.

Jagdpanther shots do have splash, actually - not that it's particularly noticeable, but you can and will kill multiple men in a squad if they're bunched up.

Saying Super Heavies require no skill is just wrong, Lionel. There is one very famous shoutcast of a replay where a very poorly used KT got 1 kill before it was killed. I've personally had a jagdpanther only get 3 infantry kills before I had to pull it off due to using it in a stupid way and hoping I could take out 2 ATGs without needing any sort of support. And I consider myself one of the best tank users in the mod!

I've also replied to your point about ATG shots and sherman shots missing - due to the extremely large hitbox of the jagdpanther, the absolute majority of missed shots will still hit it.

Yet again, I offer you to tone it down a bit, as you're taking up a fairly hostile stance.

[Groundfire]

erased:

edit- i wish not to provoke this any further because this thread is silly



jadgpanther's speed is 5.2
sherman speed is 5.4
M10 is 6.2

it's as bad as getting run over by a sherman. I cannot think of a better way at skickying a jadg either if it intentionally tries to run you over, btw.

[Smokaz]

If you have 2 jagds, you're crippled as PE when it comes to utility units. All the halftracks are suddendly very expensive and your main method of removing AT guns suddendly is your inf. If you are facing stuff like anti-infantry vehicle/tank spam backed by at guns, double jagd companies are very hard to succeed with.

Its also highly questionable against infantry, particulary when moving so the hard counter to it is infantry. Infantry will deter the jagd.

Oh is it irrelevant?  And regardless if you can't read and understand them makes your point irrelevant too then.

And everyone knows Tank Reapers does not turn bazookas into rapesauce.  They still can't penetrate frontal armor like RRs but makes their accuracy and flanking damage bearable (god, we still got to use tactics with TR unlike no skill Super Heavy tanks).

And a Jadg can run over infantry due to its excessively high speed quite well, almost like an M10 does against infantry (I personally use m10s like cromwells, and sometimes they end up killing infantry way faster and better than shermans if used properly), its not the main gun that matters for tank destroyer classes against inf but the actual tank itself.  Anyone who uses a TD's gun against infantry may as well use BARs against a Tiger's frontal armor and see how long it takes to do damage (translate: forever).

I've crushed an entire starting calling (25 pop) with one M10 on abbeville. Mortar, shrek squad, lmg, volks, mg all bunched up on the right road and moving as my improved speed m10 came driving up. I would never even attempt that with a jagd, because the half-decent allied player will have a sticky or button squad close by to protect his most valuable units. The jagd is not a infantry crush unit, nor does that role exist for any axis tanks because of how the allied VD's work.

If you wanna play a company that does not need at guns, airborne is the way to go. Zooks will never be a counter to all varieties of the axis armor unless they are changed into a RR stats-wise.

And it does require very specific tactics to run a heavy tank/super tank company. To dominate, they need a very specific set of units around them to function. Tigers need supporting AT because they fail at killing tanks, jagds need ways to take out at guns before they get worn down too much.

[Killer344]

Also pointless.

Scheduled it with PM's.