Buffing Panther

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[Smokaz]

I still think they current Panther still is terrible for what its supposed to be. Compare it to the sherman, for instance. A upgunned sherman is cheaper than the panther and can take on any medium axis armor (hetzers, stugs, p4s etc) without breaking a sweat. The sherman does not get any skirt upgrades, but it does get a mg upgrade which is infinitely more useful than the panther MG, from my experience. The panther skirts hardly helps against piats yet somewhat against RR's and zooks.

It needs more generic killing power to justify its population and fuel cost:

Proposal for buffs and discussion:

- Reduce total amount of required repair speed for panther
- Buff the mg42 on the panther
- Make the panther skirts MUCH BETTER*

* And here is the central issue. If the panther is going to be a functional unit, it has to be able to cruise around dodging 57mm, buttons and stickies. This is hard enough on its own if handheld AT didn't rape it so hard. At lot of people don't realize that the Panther hardly has much more HP than a sherman just better armor. Make skirts give a much bigger frontal boost against handheldt AT and perhaps a special damage reduction against the piats, say 25%. 57mms and 6pounders will still be awesome against the panther, the 57mm taking 1/4 of its much needed health (to combat other tanks) in one hit of AP rounds.

I also think the veterancy should be changed, as well as its base accuracy versus infantry slightly raised.

Vet 1
Speed 1.2, Turret rotation rate 1.2

Vet 2
Health 1.2, Accuracy 1.2

Vet 3
Moving Accuracy Penalty removed, Damage 1.2, Range +5

[Fresz1]

Proposal for buffs and discussion:

- Reduce total amount of required repair speed for panther
- Buff the mg42 on the panther
- Make the panther skirts MUCH BETTER*

Aggree! But I dont think DEVs going to do something about this as panther is AXIS tank

[Unkn0wn]

Yes we devs are clearly biased towards allies, even though allies are claiming the exact opposite. (See fausts)

You seriously want us to buff the most common axis tank in the game currently? Really?

[Smokaz]

What would you compare the Panther, my dear unknown? The firefly? The m10?

And if it's anything common about the panther, it is how "commonly" this thing does NOT pay for itself in any way.

[Fresz1]

Vet 1 - 33xp
Vet 2 - 133xp
Vet 3 - 267xp

 

[Unkn0wn]

The panther is a heavy tank and should NOT be compared to an Upgunned Sherman, that's just stupid.
PanzerIVs are the equivalent of upgunned shermans. Panthers are heavy tanks and have a much easier time fighting off any tank than an upgunned sherman which will even have a hard time against Stugs and hetzers.

At its current cost the Panther is a bargain, it's the most powerful non doctrine specific AT tank in the game that knows no equivalent on the allied side.

Whining about the Panther's AI capabilities is like whining about the M10s AI capabilities. Get a Tiger/King Tiger if you want a higher health, more all-round heavy tank.

That being said, you could've just suggested a price reduction on the MG/skirts if you think they're that bad.


Anyway, I'm not going to argue this further. Continue your discussion.

[Smokaz]

Why would I ever whine about the M10's AI ability? By the time a faust slams into it, the whole squad is dead. I can easily force the majority of players in EIRR to instantly retreat their full health infantry as one of my M10s come rolling in. On roads I have crushed more than 10 infantry in a row on a powerslide. Just yesterday 3/4 of paulis vet 3 stormtrooper squad was crushed by a m10 before firing a single shrek shot at me. The m10 has awesome AI ability because of its speed, only recently has this been weakened by the new faust, which is going back to normal from what you've said elsewhere. The mighty 4 x times the cost of a m10 snipes very rarely on the move, and a static panther is a invitation to an at gun.

Btw, two upgunned shermans with flank speed rapes a panther. Go test yourself.

[Fresz1]

Whining about the Panther's AI capabilities is like whining about the M10s AI capabilities. Get a Tiger/King Tiger if you want a higher health, more all-round heavy tank.

Panther: 610 MP, 500 F, 15 pop
Tiger: 640 MP, 550 F, 16 pop [12 pp]
King Tiger: 920 MP, 680 F, 18 pop [15 pp]

all three are very soft to ATG/Stickers.

[spinn72]

Mate the panther is virtually inpenetrable from the front already, only a Firefly will penetrate it 90% of the time.  if it takes hits to the rear armour it is pretty much dead however, as they do tonnes of damage.  

The panther is a tank destroyer, the MG is only for basic anti infantry purposes, like it is on the stug.   The panther will kill any tank short of a firefly in a range battle (which it will lose unless vet3)

You can always run people over with it!  Remember that's a good killing technique.

[spinn72]

Whining about the Panther's AI capabilities is like whining about the M10s AI capabilities. Get a Tiger/King Tiger if you want a higher health, more all-round heavy tank.

Panther: 610 MP, 500 F, 15 pop
Tiger: 640 MP, 550 F, 16 pop [12 pp]
King Tiger: 920 MP, 680 F, 18 pop [15 pp]

all three are very soft to ATG/Stickers.

KT very soft to ATG!!!!.  What do you rush in backwards!

Tiger is easily penetrable, it was made like that because the real tiger, while quite heavily armoured, didn't have sloped armour like some other tanks of the time.

Panther with skirts will deflect every now and then.

KT will deflect anything from the front.

Stickies will almost always damage a tank.  It's like a pershing watching out for an ATHT or Faust for the allies.

[Unkn0wn]

The m10 has awesome AI ability because of its speed

FYI I didn't mean crushing, that's an unintended 'AI capability'. Try killing infantry with the M10 by just shooting at them is what I'm getting at. It's primarily an AT tank.

[Fresz1]

Mate the panther is virtually inpenetrable from the front already, only a Firefly will penetrate it 90% of the time.  if it takes hits to the rear armour it is pretty much dead however, as they do tonnes of damage.  

The panther is a tank destroyer, the MG is only for basic anti infantry purposes, like it is on the stug.   The panther will kill any tank short of a firefly in a range battle (which it will lose unless vet3)

You can always run people over with it!  Remember that's a good killing technique.

1. U can run ppl over but is hard like a hell...
2. Any tank or ATG shoting at Panther always do dmg, even if the bullet recoshets [idk what is this about in this game a specialy with ATG, funny anyway ]

[Fresz1]

Whining about the Panther's AI capabilities is like whining about the M10s AI capabilities. Get a Tiger/King Tiger if you want a higher health, more all-round heavy tank.

Panther: 610 MP, 500 F, 15 pop
Tiger: 640 MP, 550 F, 16 pop [12 pp]
King Tiger: 920 MP, 680 F, 18 pop [15 pp]

all three are very soft to ATG/Stickers.

KT very soft to ATG!!!!.  What do you rush in backwards!

Tiger is easily penetrable, it was made like that because the real tiger, while quite heavily armoured, didn't have sloped armour like some other tanks of the time.

Panther with skirts will deflect every now and then.

KT will deflect anything from the front.

Stickies will almost always damage a tank.  It's like a pershing watching out for an ATHT or Faust for the allies.

Did u ever tryied to do it? u need to shot about 8-10 times at ATG to destroy it or remover the crew [only in lucky cases its done in 2-5 shots]

[SaintPauli]

Mate the panther is virtually inpenetrable from the front already

It doesn’t make a difference when AT guns do 50% dam on non penetrating hits. Change this and Panther will be fine (and AP round way more usefull)

[Pak88mm]

i would like to see the panthers anti infantry upgraded at vet 3. I know it can deal with tanks how about letting it deal with infantry a bit better.

[Unkn0wn]

Our general design philosophy with veterancy is that we don't make the unit better against something it was not designed to be good against. It only really becomes better in its original role and survivability. That being said, you can probably find a few exceptions to that rule in the vet list.

[pqumsieh]

I think the problem with the panther is not its lack of AI capabilities, but its role in EIR. In EIR, although there are tanks, they are few in numbers. The panther was designed to be a tank destroyer, but without as many tanks it has very scenarios in which it can act as a counter. In VCoH, you can almost guarantee that panther will have a role because at the very least it can go assault the enemy base or act as a sponge.

With that in mind, upgrading it or buffing it is not the solution. Additionally, lowering its cost will not solve the issue. It anything, lower cost on the panther might imbalance the costs of other tanks. So its best left alone or adjusted very slowly. Its likely the panther is best used in 3v3 and 4v4 since you will see more ally tanks. As a side note, it is not a heavy tank either, it is actually a medium tank.

Like I said, the panther should only be used when attacking armor. Engaging infantry is not really the option, nor is making allied AT obsolete with the purchase of skirts.

PQ

[Zinser]

Buff the Panther eh?

I know... why not slap a Calliope rocket rack on top? That would be great AI

Har har - yes lets buff the one unit that for its cost lets you control the battlefield..

[NightRain]

Buff the Panther eh?

I know... why not slap a Calliope rocket rack on top? That would be great AI

Har har - yes lets buff the one unit that for its cost lets you control the battlefield..

Actually Panther only rules the battlefield in late game when allies are out of anti-tank guns and only have tanks of their own. Panther itself might survive against 2 Shermans but if both Shermans are upgunned its chances of winning are very low and will depend on the player itself and as well the dice rolls. (Hit/Miss)

As a Medium Tank destroyer Panther is like a M10, Better armor and a MG but its role is still like M10s. Two of these tanks are hard to compare but they are the closest to each others in their roles, in the exception that M10 is cheap little throw away where Panther is more like a tank you want to savor and keep safe and hug it before you go to sleep since the more vet it has the better it becomes.

I don't know any possible way to buff a panther, Side Skirts buff is a tempting idea, same with the 50% dmg on deflections but the roof MG upgrade isn't that neccesary but if one makes it alike Sherman's (give same dmg, which would break the rule of not touching VCoH stats which was broken long time ago, maybe buff it through veterancy? That'd work)

[Raio]

buff the v1s