Current State of Doctrines

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[Illegal_Carrot]

I realize doctrines have not yet been completed, but I have issues with the current state of many doctrines, especially Axis ones.
As I see it, doctrine/unlock choices should be a tough decision, where all the choices are relatively equal in overall benefit, and it's up to the player to decide which choice best fist their playing style and battalion. As it is with many doctrines now, however, it's just easier to find the 'best' ones, or even worse, find the worst choice(s), and simply unlock all the others.
I've created a list of the Defensive unlocks that I have issues with (though I'll be making some for TD and SE later), in order to give my opinion of them, and why they're inferior, or why they need a buff.
I've talked to many people about this, and a majority agree with me on these suggestions, so this is not solely my idea of 'better.'

Defensive
T1
Advanced Warning - It used to be that AW gave 15% sight on all units, and stacked with Omniscience. It was good that it would allow you to see slightly further, and although it wouldn’t give any offensive or defensive buffs, it would improve your scouting slightly. However, as it now only gives 10% sight, and only to infantry, there’s no reason to take this. Compared to the rest of the T1s it’s complete crap, so it’ll be the one T1 that 99% of Defensive players won’t unlock.

T2
Fatherland Fortification – FF only affects one-third of the game types, and for that reason alone isn’t worth taking. However, in addition to this, the advantage it gives isn’t even that useful.
Rommel’s Asparagus – It’s easy enough to know when/where AB/Commandos are dropping, so this one is fairly useless.

T3
Rocket Arty – A nice unlock, but if other doctrines get their arty at T2, why does Defensive get it at T3? There’s really nothing that makes Rocket Arty better than any other arty, so..
For the Fatherland – I can’t imagine that this ability would be too useful in EiR, and those who have used it before have confirmed this.  Only working in friendly territory is too situational, and I don’t believe the buffs it gives are worth a T3 slot.
Scopes – A worse Advanced Warning that gives a measly 10% accuracy. AW isn’t worth taking, so this one is definitely not worth the T3 slot.
Large Rockets – If I wanted my Nebel to be more effective I could just Supervise it. On top of that, the Stuka is a waste of resources, so this is a T3 that only gives a benfit to one unit, which isn’t enough.

T4
Suspended Aftershock – Maybe worth a T3 slot, but definitely not a T4. It’ll end up being useless easily 90% of the time, and anyone who pays attention will be able to always avoid it.
Fatherland Defense – Seems like a good unlock, until you realize that 20% isn’t that much. Even on a Panther, the largest unit that this ability could affect, it only gives 140 extra HP. Again, maybe a T3 (with some tweaking), but not worth a T4 slot as it is.
*TBA* - What was wrong with Duck and Cover?
Omniscience – As I mentioned before, Omni used to give 40% to all units, but now it’s been reduced to just infantry. Why was that? Before, it would give you nice scouting ability; no huge offensive or defensive buffs, no large HP gain, no must-have end-all-be-all ability, just nice scouting, and that was a fair trade. But now it’s only on inf, and not worth taking. As it is now, I could just use a bike and still get better sight/detection, and not have wasted a T4.
Camouflage Equipment – A one-time-use ability that cloaks only certain units only one time, until they move or shoot. Definitely not T4 stuff, and much worse than even the other T4s.

As the Defensive doctrine is now I suspect that 99% of Defensive players will take
T1- All but AW
T2- All but FF/RA
T3- RA and SO
T4- Whatever TBA is, it'll probably be better than the other T4s. But if the TBA does suck, then most people will probably take FD.

I hope these unlocks get revised, and given the proper changes/buffs. As I said before, unlocking abilities now is more of a 'which of these are best' decision, rather than a 'which of these benefit my battalion/play style best' decision.
I highly appreciate the time and effort that the Devs have put into this mod, but I feel it would be even better if certain changes are made, including a revision of the current doctrines.

[jackmccrack]

meh

[gamesguy2]

Fatherland Defense – Seems like a good unlock, until you realize that 20% isn’t that much. Even on a Panther, the largest unit that this ability could affect, it only gives 140 extra HP. Again, maybe a T3 (with some tweaking), but not worth a T4 slot as it is.

The amount of biase here is hilarious.

Fatherland defense is quite possibly one of the most powerful tier 4s in the game.   Almost all the other ones from original EIR have been nerfed.

[31stPzGren]

T3
Rocket Arty – A nice unlock, but if other doctrines get their arty at T2, why does Defensive get it at T3? There’s really nothing that makes Rocket Arty better than any other arty, so..

What makes Rocket Arty better is the speed at which it drops, the massive area covered plus the amount of damage dealt. Unless they have changed it... rocket arty was absolutely devastating in old EiR and one of the doctrine of choices to counter Artillery Expertise back then.

For the Fatherland – I can’t imagine that this ability would be too useful in EiR, and those who have used it before have confirmed this.  Only working in friendly territory is too situational, and I don’t believe the buffs it gives are worth a T3 slot.

Its actually useful in a crunch when you get bum rushed by hordes of elite infantry/infantry and you need your line to hold...

Large Rockets – If I wanted my Nebel to be more effective I could just Supervise it. On top of that, the Stuka is a waste of resources, so this is a T3 that only gives a benfit to one unit, which isn’t enough.

The stuka isn't a waste of resource. Stukas & Nebel have very different roles as artillery. Likewise, large rockets were used to very devastating effect before in old EiR. What remains, is how the doctrine would be used in the new metagame...

T4
Fatherland Defense – Seems like a good unlock, until you realize that 20% isn’t that much. Even on a Panther, the largest unit that this ability could affect, it only gives 140 extra HP. Again, maybe a T3 (with some tweaking), but not worth a T4 slot as it is.

20% was a lot if you do the math across the table. Improvements in hitpoints, do not correlate to a 20% improvement in performance. Hordes of vetted volks were actually holding back allied infantry back then.

Omniscience – As I mentioned before, Omni used to give 40% to all units, but now it’s been reduced to just infantry. Why was that? Before, it would give you nice scouting ability; no huge offensive or defensive buffs, no large HP gain, no must-have end-all-be-all ability, just nice scouting, and that was a fair trade. But now it’s only on inf, and not worth taking.

This happened because axis players could just get a bike or two and could see the allies coming a mile away, hence most likely the reason why they took it away from bikes.

-------------------------------------

Just some insights on how the abilities were like last time. Admittedly defensive isn't the most powerful doctrine so to speak, but some of the abilities are not that bad.

Back then scopes only increased range, accuracy & damage by 8%, you're getting 10% now so its an improvement lol and it was T3 as well.

The problem with the abilities, are that they are given to infantry and you cannot make a pure infantry army to maximise its benefits due to availability issues.

[Illegal_Carrot]

Fatherland defense is quite possibly one of the most powerful tier 4s in the game.   Almost all the other ones from original EIR have been nerfed.

I simply don't see the use in 20% extra health, at least not compared to many other T4s.
So my tanks can take one extra AT shot before dieing? So my inf can last slightly longer on the front line (or .5 seconds longer when being bum rushed by Rangers/Commandos)?
I realize that it does have its uses (especially on KCH), but I see it as less useful and more situational than many other T4 abilities.

What makes Rocket Arty better is the speed at which it drops, the massive area covered plus the amount of damage dealt. Unless they have changed it... rocket arty was absolutely devastating in old EiR and one of the doctrine of choices to counter Artillery Expertise back then.

I have yet to use RA, so I don't know how it compares to others, but I always thought of it as a Firestorm that damaged vehicles, but didn't leave a DOT fire.

Its actually useful in a crunch when you get bum rushed by hordes of elite infantry/infantry and you need your line to hold...

Which plays right into what I meant when I said it was too situational. Besides, I'd much rather have an Officer constantly supervising multiple squads (which provides an 82% offensive buff), than a one time use, defensive buff (which only reduces damage by 44%).

The stuka isn't a waste of resource. Stukas & Nebel have very different roles as artillery. Likewise, large rockets were used to very devastating effect before in old EiR. What remains, is how the doctrine would be used in the new metagame...

The Stuka is much less cost-effective, usually get fewer kills in a game than a Nebel, and is over-all less effective than a Nebel. 'Waste of resources' wasn't the right term, but I'd still take a Nebel over a Stuka every time.
All this doesn't change the fact that if I wanted more effective arty, I could just supervise it and save myself a T3.

20% was a lot if you do the math across the table. Improvements in hitpoints, do not correlate to a 20% improvement in performance. Hordes of vetted volks were actually holding back allied infantry back then.

I realize that HP=/=performance, but as I said before, I don't see it being as useful as other many other T4s currently available.
And FD is the best T4 by far. While it's use can be argued, all the other T4s are just crap.

This happened because axis players could just get a bike or two and could see the allies coming a mile away, hence most likely the reason why they took it away from bikes.

But in the process they made it useless. Even with the buffs, infantry have less sight/detection than a bike. So I'll just have a bike on the field at all times scouting (like I already do), not take Omni, and still have better scouting than if I took Omni and no bike.

Back then scopes only increased range, accuracy & damage by 8%, you're getting 10% now so its an improvement lol and it was T3 as well.

Just because it was crap before doesn't mean it should stay crap. It's literally Advanced Warning with a nerf and a buff. On a T3.

The problem with the abilities, are that they are given to infantry and you cannot make a pure infantry army to maximise its benefits due to availability issues.

The problem is that some unlocks are total crap. I'm not going to say that an unlock is completely useless 100% of the time, but come on: Scopes is a T3 Advanced Warning, Omni is entirely useless if you simply take a bike, instead of unlocking Large Rockets, you could just Supervise a Nebel and get the same results, etc.

[31stPzGren]

I simply don't see the use in 20% extra health, at least not compared to many other T4s.
So my tanks can take one extra AT shot before dieing? So my inf can last slightly longer on the front line (or .5 seconds longer when being bum rushed by Rangers/Commandos)?
I realize that it does have its uses (especially on KCH), but I see it as less useful and more situational than many other T4 abilities.

Its effect is more readily appreciable with 10000 MP and that it applies universally across the board. Its one of those abilities which are harder to measure unlike offmap arty, which can insta-gib units.

What you said is true, it requires skill to use these abilities right. Its just like how 20% extra health on volks/grens w/o AT will not help when a tank comes.

However, the problems you're describing does not lie so much with the doctrine but rather, the pricing and availability of the other units you have mentioned which the Devs have already said to be a problem.

Which plays right into what I meant when I said it was too situational. Besides, I'd much rather have an Officer constantly supervising multiple squads (which provides an 82% offensive buff), than a one time use, defensive buff (which only reduces damage by 44%).

No disputes about that, except that you can pop the ability any time you like, don't need to field pop, mp & munitions or move the officer about and try to keep him from not dying from multiple things. Its a trade off. Arguably they could revert it to the original unlimited uses with cooldown which would make it more useful.

The Stuka is much less cost-effective, usually get fewer kills in a game than a Nebel, and is over-all less effective than a Nebel. 'Waste of resources' wasn't the right term, but I'd still take a Nebel over a Stuka every time.
All this doesn't change the fact that if I wanted more effective arty, I could just supervise it and save myself a T3

Officer supervision doesn't solve all the problems all the time. Its a pity you didn't get to watch replays last time on how stukas were used. You choice to take nebel is fine, there are people who do prefer to take stukas.

But in the process they made it useless. Even with the buffs, infantry have less sight/detection than a bike. So I'll just have a bike on the field at all times scouting (like I already do), not take Omni, and still have better scouting than if I took Omni and no bike.

The problem is that the doctrine abilities are more intangible benefits, requiring an overall strategy to really benefit from it rather than something easily measure-able. Whats Omni if you can't scout properly or if you aren't alert to all the movements on the minimap? Likewise FD is useless w/o the right counters.

The problem is that some unlocks are total crap. I'm not going to say that an unlock is completely useless 100% of the time, but come on: Scopes is a T3 Advanced Warning, Omni is entirely useless if you simply take a bike, instead of unlocking Large Rockets, you could just Supervise a Nebel and get the same results, etc.

Thats quite true, thats why I'm not totally "refuting" you, just informing you on what things was like etc. seeing as no one posted.

[gamesguy2]

20% more hp on everything you own.

The fact that you think this is bad is hilarious.  Compare to say, British Grit.  25% more hp on tommies and sappers as a tier 4.

Its no contest.  Fatherland defense is supremely good, it buffs everything a significant amount and makes your entire army tougher.


Ftfl is one of the best activated abilities in the game.  I forgot how many times I've gotten LMG grens or KCH suppressed and wish I had for the fatherland.   And the 30% damage reduction allows grens to eat a sherman shell to the face and live through it.

Rocket arty is the best offmap in the game.  It comes down fast, thoroughly saturates an area, pinning all infantry and rapes tanks in the drop zone as well.     Firestorm is better vs infantry, but does nothing to tanks, rocket arty will rape tanks as well.

Old EIR rocket arty with MI was the number 1 counter to calliopes, as one use killed a calliope and with DRR it could not stop the barrage to escape.

[Pak88mm]

old defense company i ran in old EiR was a rape machine. Now it doesnt look like much rape lol but still formidable. Heck i think i ran a rocket arty and then a fatherland defense one.

[spinn72]

Advanced Warning

10% sight is enough for all infantry to spot an MG before it starts firing, and even spot an ATG from quite a far way away.  It is well worth it.  Not getting supressed by an MG is extremely useful.  It will also make the motorbike even more effective for its money.  I don't think it needs to be 15% yet.

Never will all the Doctrine unlocks suit you.  Pick the ones you like and go with them.  all the EIRR guys said the 4th tier doctrine will determine the way you play, that's how unique it is. 

[salan]

remember guys, the public list has changed a lot.. once it is completely finalized in the private forums we'll be releasing it.

[Mysthalin]

I somehow remember my Large Rockets + RA company back in EiR...
3 Stukas, 2 nebs. Never lost a single artilery piece, 35 wins, 3 losses. Not bad for a purely artilery support company - Large Rockets are immensely useful. RA one-shots calliopes... What else could you want?

My fatherland defense company was also amazingly good. Not only could my KCH charge through an MG42 and 2 BARs with SF, they were also vet 0 and didn't lose a guy. All that from FTFL and a 20 percent health buff? Not to mention the countless tank kills a panther with 900 can attain? Heck, once my FD panther got 25 airborne kills before it killed a single tank, without losing 25 percent health(no RepairBunkers as defensive, my enemy used only RR airborne). Simmilar win ratio as with my RA company, allowed me to get my first vet 3 tank that actualy lived through the game it got vet 3.

FTFL could use being on a timer again, but other than that - defensive is still immensely awesome of a doctrine, and FD is in the top 3 list of "most uber T4s evor".

[Lt_Apollo]

i agree defense is a powerfull doctrine the buffs alone are remarcable, sadly it just dosnt look flashy. cant wait for larger rockets on my dual stukas, they allready rack up 20-30 kills a game. the sheer amount of rockets luanched by 2 stukas fired at the same time is devestating best thing is that you can bairly hear them meaning the enemy will just stand still while the stukas rockets anhilate there deffensive line. now try that with a neble and the ennemy will start running becouse of the noise, same with all artilery exept stuka.

[Baine]

Defensive
T1
Advanced Warning - sucks, yes, i regret taking it when it was 15%, but now i can't unselect it. Rather get trenches for volks and pios.

T2
Fatherland Fortification –

"FF only affects one-third of the game types, and for that reason alone isn’t worth taking. However, in addition to this, the advantage it gives isn’t even that useful."

Yes, unsure about, but won't take it. Same reasons.

Rommel’s Asparagus –

"It’s easy enough to know when/where AB/Commandos are dropping, so this one is fairly useless."

True aswell. Looked interesting at first, but now, no thanks.

T3
Rocket Arty –

A nice unlock, but if other doctrines get their arty at T2, why does Defensive get it at T3? There’s really nothing that makes Rocket Arty better than any other arty, so..

Rocket Arty rocks, it's ok as it is.

For the Fatherland – I

can’t imagine that this ability would be too useful in EiR, and those who have used it before have confirmed this.  Only working in friendly territory is too situational, and I don’t believe the buffs it gives are worth a T3 slot.

Don't even see any real difference, and then buying PP for it to use it? No thank you.

Scopes –

A worse Advanced Warning that gives a measly 8% accuracy. AW isn’t worth taking, so this one is definitely not worth the T3 slot.

Not worth a T3.

Large Rockets –

If I wanted my Nebel to be more effective I could just Supervise it. On top of that, the Stuka is a waste of resources, so this is a T3 that only gives a benfit to one unit, which isn’t enough.

Not a fan of stukas myself, but seems ok.

T4
Suspended Aftershock –

Maybe worth a T3 slot, but definitely not a T4. It’ll end up being useless easily 90% of the time, and anyone who pays attention will be able to always avoid it.

Looks interesting, would be nice to know more about it.If it drops red flares for the aftershock aswell, then no thank you.

Fatherland Defense –

Seems like a good unlock, until you realize that 20% isn’t that much. Even on a Panther, the largest unit that this ability could affect, it only gives 140 extra HP. Again, maybe a T3 (with some tweaking), but not worth a T4 slot as it is.

FD is fine as it is. Was a T4 since ever.

*TBA* -

What was wrong with Duck and Cover?

If i wanted my units to get cover then i would put them into cover. More like a T3.

Omniscience –

As I mentioned before, Omni used to give 40% to all units, but now it’s been reduced to just infantry. Why was that? Before, it would give you nice scouting ability; no huge offensive or defensive buffs, no large HP gain, no must-have end-all-be-all ability, just nice scouting, and that was a fair trade. But now it’s only on inf, and not worth taking. As it is now, I could just use a bike and still get better sight/detection, and not have wasted a T4.

Sounds good, but the nerf to infantry-only is a bit harsh.

Camouflage Equipment –

A one-time-use ability that cloaks only certain units only one time, until they move or shoot. Definitely not T4 stuff, and much worse than even the other T4s.

Sounded cool the first time i read it. But now, it's utter crap. I mean, what does that help? Nothing, units will open fire and you have to move if the enemy attacks on another position.
Easily destroyed by a jeep.

[Bubz]

I too would like some love for defensive doctrine (the one I am running), like finishing the t1s so I can be a vetwhore.

[Illegal_Carrot]

20% more hp on everything you own.

The fact that you think this is bad is hilarious.  Compare to say, British Grit.  25% more hp on tommies and sappers as a tier 4.

Its no contest.  Fatherland defense is supremely good, it buffs everything a significant amount and makes your entire army tougher.

Re-examining FD again, it pretty much gives all units free Vet 1 (most units get 15-25% less damage buffs at vet 1), which really isn't as bad as I first thought.

You've made a decent argument for FD, and I can even see the benefits of RA, and why it's a T3. But what about all the other abilities, that outright suck? As it is, FD is the only reasonable T4 to take, and there are many other unlocks (in every tier, not just 4) that require less than a second's thought to realize that they suck, and there's no way their benefits outweigh that of every other ability in that tier.

remember guys, the public list has changed a lot.. once it is completely finalized in the private forums we'll be releasing it.

You guys have been making constant updates to certain doctrines/abilities, so I assumed that the current doctrines were the most up to date listings. My apologies if this is incorrect, but I figured you guys would release your ideas as soon as they got semi-finalized, so people could share their opinions and plan their doctrines accordingly.

[CryingWolf]

plan their doctrines accordingly.

Well, since when ALL the doctrines are done, they are going to give us a doctrine reset and give us our PP's back...Don't think this is going to be too big a problem ^^

[Raio]

do we know the date ?

[Akranadas]

it's the 27th of June

[BradAnderson]

Are all the docterines seriously done? it only says a total of about 20 are done in the launcher...

[Akranadas]

No one said they were all done