Panzer 4

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[Glaze]

only reason you have less P4s then US has shermans is because most of you are running a panther along with your P4s, run no heavy tanks and you'd have an equal amount of superior tanks

Hrm... perhaps.  My Panther costs 500 fuel, almost twice as much as a PIV (if I sold my Panther, scout car, and kettenkrad I could call in another two PIV tanks, but I wouldn't be able to upgrade them both).  What is the normal availability for a PIV?  I got mine with a reinforcements package and can only get two without coughing up some PP.  And I'm still spending fuel on ht, an 88, and two Marders too... *ponders and goes to examine his Amor company again*

Edit: Also Two, let's keep it civil eh?

Edit 2 (OMFG!): Okay, it looks like I didn't spend fuel on anything else I would have been able to buy 4/5 PIV tanks for my Axis company, while I could get 5 Sherman tanks and still have enough left over for a nifty M10 on my Allied company, so there (forgot exactly what point I was trying to make)!

[Jazlizard]

See thats your problem fanboy, you should be able to look at the post and see why it makes sense but you cant, axis nerfs are like bestiality to you.

Keep on piling the attacks, it really helps you. I'm glad bestiality makes sense to you, perhaps you have some experience with that, I can't claim the same.

Back on topic: Availability is the same for both, which is 4 in reserve, 2 in supply.

The 2 tanks (sherman and PIV) are priced very close to the same.

[Glaze]

Back on topic: Availability is the same for both, which is 4 in reserve, 2 in supply.  The 2 tanks (sherman and PIV) are priced very close to the same.

Indeed, the PIV is a bit more expensive by 10 or so MP and fuel.

[Nevyen]

Jaz and Two cut out the rubbish comments about each other and stay on topic, if you can't you can both take time out. (To make it clear i don't care who started what, in the end the continuation of such rubbish warrents both of you to be blamed)

Stop it.

[deadbolt]

See thats your problem fanboy, you should be able to look at the post and see why it makes sense but you cant, axis nerfs are like bestiality to you.

Keep on piling the attacks, it really helps you. I'm glad bestiality makes sense to you, perhaps you have some experience with that, I can't claim the same.

Back on topic: Availability is the same for both, which is 4 in reserve, 2 in supply.

The 2 tanks (sherman and PIV) are priced very close to the same.

Yet the Sherman doesnt near the power as the p4, if i could pay to have skirts on my sherman i would tbh. And for such little cost too.

[AmPM]

Actually, without doctrine abilities they are practically the same vehicle.

With the upgun, the Sherman handily beats a P4.

Doctrines mess it all up though. On its own, a Blitz P4 will lose to an Armor Sherman. With support which lets the P4 use its range, the P4 will win.

[Warlight]

And perhaps more on topic, its a terrible idea to link upgrades to vet. 

The only people it hurts, AND really, The only people, are those people who do NOT vet whore. 

It gives the vet horing allied players a bigger advantage against non vet whoreing axis. 

But there are people, Pauli, and Elite gren (Just two examples of the good axis who manage to keep vet in their army) who will always have vet two P4's with skirts (somehow). 

Otherthings that are tied to vet, Heroic charge, Its probubly just me, but I can never keep a luitenant alive long enough to really use its benafits. 

Or, Sprint, I can count the number infantyr units I've gotten to vet two on one hand in my tank hunter company. 

So theres something I've never gotten to enjoy, sprint.

I'd say I'm a pretty average player, Vet would be nice, but its out of my grasp most times.

My point: if you link stuff to vet, it really only affecks good players verse the average players, its does nothing for factional balance.

[Jazlizard]

Pretty good argument Warlight, I hadn't really considered that angle.  Well said.

[Lt_Apollo]

if i am not mistakin, skirts wher heavly nerfed so that they could be purchused without vetrancy. i am pritty shure this was done during the pre EiRR development stage (i think during Salans development time not exactly shure) but anyway skirts are alot less potent now than the old EiR ones, but this may be do to the fact of actual relic changes idk. dont quote me on this

[EchoAlpha]

"And a p4 shouldnt be a tank counter, paks shreks and panthers are your counter."

Ok, what the hell?  A tank shouldn't counter a tank?  Are you insane?  Isn't that what m10s and m18s are?  Tanks?  Or the fact that the only way a p4 wins against a sherman is if it has the range buffs.  Which means that unless you are 1 of 6 doctrines or happen to get a p4 to live to vet 2 without getting hunted then any upgunned sherman wins in a fair fight?  

As a secondary note, I am starting to notice a trend.  Either everyone wants to nerf the p4 or they want to buff the other tanks to match a p4.  Now I am not saying that other units might not need improvement, but why make everything as good as the p4?  Think about it.  Axis has 4 doctrines max that can field a long barrelled p4.  The allies can field a medium tank with every doctrine.  IF we make every mainline allied tank more like the p4 then yet again we have equal quality and superior numbers to the allies.  I often think people get pissed because a single unit blew up their precious unit and they forget the overall scope that the balance of the game needs to cover.

[Mukip]

The P4 is a soft counter to tanks, it can do the job but as a generalist tank it shouldn't do that job too well.

[AmPM]

What I think is fun, is people are complaining mostly about the HEAT Round + Improved Barrel P4. Its a medium tank with its doctrine supporting it, and still without supporting friendly AT an Armor doctrine Sherman will beat it.

I guess since engagement range is truly the king, the Firefly must be the best tank in the game right?

[Mukip]

The range is important to the Firefly because it's an expensive tank that fires slowly, has less health than most vehicles of similar cost and is only useful vs vehicles.  It's not going to snipe shreck squads and other infantry from long range like a P4 can to allied infantry.  The generalist P4 should not beat the Brit's dedicated tank destroyer at it's own game through the stacking of abilities and upgrades.

[Scyn]

Think about it.  Axis has 4 doctrines max that can field a long barrelled p4. 

I thought the P4 was a Reinforcement package? Thus enabling P4s for all axis doctrines if they so choose.

Just thought I'd nitpick there.

[AmPM]

Similar to all the Allied elite infantry with AT 

zomg NERF

[DasNoob]

Skirts need to go back to vet 2 and it couldnt hurt for the mg to go to vet 1. And id like to see a accuracy nerf at long/max range but i dobut thats guna happen.

Less QQ and mor Pew Pew.

[crimsonrabbit]

I dont like the p4 as much as i used to.

[Two]

Skirts need to go back to vet 2 and it couldnt hurt for the mg to go to vet 1. And id like to see a accuracy nerf at long/max range but i dobut thats guna happen.

Less QQ and mor Pew Pew.

20 mins with a p4 and i can get 40 kills and several vehicle kills an hour with a crom and you cant even get 20 kills.

[DasNoob]

The crom will never be like the P4.  It is a different tank.  Learn to live with it, and wait of the coding of the brit doctrines.

[Two]

Yes it is a different tank, but due to its capabilities it makes wehr the better faction.