[CW] Some peculiar things regarding balance

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[LuAn]

Heyo

ive been playing alot CW lately, checking the forums, price listing balance talk and so on and a few question came to me and i cant find a proper answer to them. And i also now that some question might seem a bit dumb (especially the comparisons, because units shouldnt be mirrors of each other but the prices of all units should be in a proper relation and if stats are very similar so should be the prices)  and useless but please stay calm  

I know im a crazy talker but ill try to keep those questions as clear as possible but still if you are not quite sure what i mean ask me! (Also please excuse my bad english including my bad spelling and grammer)
Also please be so kind and stay on topic, this shouldnt be a "buff this or that thread" i just wanna know the reasons why things are the way they are:


Currently the amount of implemented doctrine choices are the following:

Americans: Infantry T1: 4 T2: 4 T3: 2 T4: 3 Airbourne T1: 4 T2: 3 T3: 1 T4: 2 Armour T1: 3 T2: 5 T3: 3 T4: 1 Summary T1: 11 T2: 12 T3: 6 T4: 6 Total: 35

British: Commandos T1: 3 T2: 1 T3: 1 T4: 2 Canadian Artillery T1: 5 T2: 3 T3: 1 T4: 0 Engineer T1: 3 T2: 3 T3: 2 T4: 0 Summary T1: 11 T2: 7 T3: 4 T4: 2 Total: 21

Wehrmacht: Defensive T1: 2 T2: 3 T3: 4 T4: 2 Blitzkrieg T1: 4 T2: 2 T3: 3 T4: 2 Terror T1: 3 T2: 2 T3: 2 T4: 0 Summary T1: 9 T2: 7 T3: 9 T4: 4 Total: 29

Panzer Elite: Luftwaffe T1: 4 T2: 3 T3: 2 T4: 2 Scorched Earth T1: 3 T2: 1 T3: 2 T4: 1 Tank Destroyers T1: 4 T2: 2 T3: 1 T4: 1 Summary T1: 11 T2: 6 T3: 5 T4: 4 Total: 26

• Why cant sappers build tank traps?
  Well they cannot even build tank traps in vcoh.
  Will sappers be able to build tank traps someday?
  
  
• Why arent sappers allowed to buy mines extra like Engineers?
  They have 1 use of mines included in the DnD upgrade.
  
  
• Why cant the vickers relocate or properly retreat? (but you can still kill it with double delete) Why not make the vickers emplacement behave like the wehr bunker with a hmg inside where the hmg can relocate to other sides of the emplacement including some minor balance tweaks?
  
  
• Why does this stats table look so odd?
  

  Engineers 110 MP, 3 pop Flamethrower 50 Mun Democharge 60 Mun (1 use) American Mines 35 Mun (2 uses) Minesweeper 10 Mun Machine Gun Nest 50 Mun (1 use) Triage Center 120 Mun (1 use) Wire Sandbags Tanktraps Sappers 200 MP, 4 pop Piats 100 Mun Detection and Demolition + Mine 70 Mun (1 use) Trenches Wire Sandbags Pioneers 110 MP, 2 pop Flamethrower 50 Mun Goliath 90 Mun (1 use) Wehrmacht Mines 15 Mun (1 use) Minesweeper 10 Mun Medikit 15 Mun (2 uses) Bunker 5 Mun (1 use) Bunker (MG42) 55 Mun (1 use), 2 pop Wire Sandbags Tanktraps Vickers MG emplacement 140 MP, 30 Mun, 3 pop

• Why do sappers cost 200MP, considering Piat Commandos(180 MP, 100 Mun, 3 pop (Smoke - 300 seconds)?
  
  
• Why was the Creeping Barrage removed and will it come back? If Yes how?
  
  
• When will the Overwatch and Counter Battery be implemented and how? Also are those two abilities going to have cancel cooldowns like in vcoh or normal cooldowns similiar to marder lockdown so that the priest is immideatly moveable after canceling?
  How do you think should those abilities be brought into the game?
  As soon as those two abilities are implemented they  have to be considered in every balance comparison, but since they arent in the game yet i have to ignore them
  
  
• Why is the Doctrine Choice to unlock the Overwatch and Counter Battery Ability T3?
  
  
• Why isnt Canister Shot(85mun) on cooldown but on uses? If it would be on cooldown, would the Stuart be a more viable option or still cannot compete with the Staghound?
  For 10Mun Less i can get a 50Cal on my 55MP 20Fuel more expensive staghound which is there constantly.
  
  
• Why does the Bren Carrier costs only 30mp and 20fuel less than a Infantry Halftrack whereas: bc =1 squad,4 fire ports; IHT = 2 squads, 3 fire ports, hmg
  And also: M3 Halftrack compared to Wehrmacht Halftrack, i'm curious about those 5mp because i somewhere heard that all transport vehicles except kangaroo will share the same armor but the wehr ht has 1 mg more than the m3
  
  

  Commonwealth Bren Carrier	180 MP, 15 F, 4 pop
  Panzerelite Infantry Halftrack	210 MP, 35 F, 4 pop
  American M3 Halftrack	200 MP, 20 F, 3 pop
  Wehrmacht Halftrack	195 MP, 20 F, 3 pop

  
  
• Why does the Bren Carrier MMG cost 60mp, 60mun more than a Infantry Halftrack if their weapons are almost equivalent and the IHT also acts as a transporter with firing spots? And why does nobody use the Bren MMG?
  
  

  Bren MMG	270 MP, 60 Mun, 35 F, 4 pop (Button - 240 seconds)	MMG Carrier (2.0) -Vet1 Received Accuracy 0.8 -Vet2 Damage 1.2, Speed 1.2, Health 1.15 -Vet3 Accuracy 1.2, Received Damage 0.8
  IHT	210 MP, 35 F, 4 pop	Infantry Halftrack (2.0) -Vet1 Received Accuracy 0.75 -Vet2 Received Damage 0.75, Damage 1.2, Speed 1.2, -Vet3 Accuracy 1.2, Received Damage 0.85

  
  
• Why do those stats look like that:
  
  

  25pder	380 MP, 140 F, 9 pop	180sec recharge
  Howitzer	400 MP, 160 F, 9 pop	180sec recharge
  Priest	465 MP, 355 F, 10 pop, 8pp	160sec rercharge
  Calliope	600 MP, 450 F, 10 pop, 10pp	160sec rercharge
  Hummel	515 MP, 390 F, 10 pop, 8pp	140sec recharge

  
  
• Why do those stats look like that? Why not allow the 25pder to relocate?
  
  

  25pder	380 MP, 140 F, 9 pop	25 Pounder Howitzer (1.8 ) -Vet1 Received Damage 0.75, Reload 0.9, Range 10 -Vet2 Reload 0.8, Range 10, Recharge -30s, -Vet3 Reload 0.8, Range 10, Recharge -30s
  howitzer	400 MP, 160 F, 9 pop	Howitzer (1.6 ) -Vet1 Received Damage 0.75 -Vet2 Range +25, Recharge -30s -Vet3 Reload 0.75(rate of fire), Recharge -30s

  
  
• Why do those stats look like that? Why does the Hummel have a higher range than the priest?Why does the Hummel have such a better accuracy, higher range, requires less xp to vet and lower recharge than the priest considering the priest fires a bit faster and 2 more shells than the hummel.
  
  

  Priest	465 MP, 355 F, 10 pop, 8pp	Priest (0.5) -Vet1 Speed 1.25, Reload 0.9 -Vet2 Reload 0.8, Recharge -20s, Additional Creeping Barrage -Vet3 Reload 0.8, Recharge -20s	160sec rercharge
  Hummel	515 MP, 390 F, 10 pop, 8pp	Hummel (0.5) -Vet1 Received Damage .75 -Vet2 Damage 1.2, Speed 1.1, Barrage cooldown -20s, -Vet3 Damage 1.1, Speed 1.2, Barrage cooldown -20s	140sec rercharge

  
  
• Why do mortars have those prices considering their various stats:
  
  

  American Mortar	350 MP, 50 Mun, 4 pop	American Mortar Squad (1.6) -Vet1 Received Accuracy 0.8 -Vet2 Accuracy 1.15, Reload 0.8 -Vet3 Health 1.1, Cover Ability*, Range +10
  Brit 2" Mortar:	380 MP, 30 Mun, 4 pop	British Mortar Team (1.8 ) (Not sure if this is also used for the mortar emplacement) -Vet1 Received Damage 0.75 -Vet2 Accuracy 1.15, Received Damage 0.9 -Vet3 Health 1.25, Reload 0.8, Range 10
  Mortar emplacement	450 MP, 65 Mun, 4 pop	No Veterancy Listed
  Mortar Commando's	495 MP, 60 Mun, 4 pop (Smoke - 300 seconds)	Mortar Commando (1.6) -Vet1 Received Accuracy 0.8 -Vet2 Accuracy 1.15, Reload 0.8 -Vet3 Health 1.1, Cover Ability*, Range +10
  Wehr Mortar	480 MP, 65 Mun, 4 pop	Wehrmacht Mortar (1.4) -Vet1 Received Accuracy 0.8 -Vet2 Suppression 1.15, Accuracy 1.15 -Vet3 Health 1.1, Cover Ability*, Damage 1.2
  Mortar Halftrack	440 MP, 60 Mun, 60 F, 6 pop	Mortar Halftrack (1.4) -Vet1 Received Accuracy 0.75 -Vet2 Speed 1.2, Accuracy 1.15, Incendiary Barrage cooldown -30s -Vet3 Damage 1.15, Incendiary Barrage cooldown -30s

  
  
• Why do Anti Tank Guns have those prices considering their various stats:
  
  

  American 57mm	380 MP, 110 Mun, 4 pop	57mm AT Gun (1.4) -Vet1 Speed 1.1, Received Damage 0.85 -Vet2 Received Accuracy 0.85, Penetration 1.15 -Vet3 Damage 1.25, Penetration 1.15, Range +5
  British 6pdr AT Gun	380 MP, 110 Mun, 4 pop	No Veterancy listed
  British 17pdr AT Gun	350 MP, 150 Mun, 4 pop	17 Pounder (1.8 ) -Vet1 Received Damage 0.75 -Vet2 Range +5,  Reload 0.9 -Vet3 Damage 1.25, Range +5, Sight +10
  Wehrmacht PaK	380 MP, 120 Mun, 4 pop	PAK 38 ATG (1.4) -Vet1 Speed 1.1, Received Damage 0.85 -Vet2 Received Accuracy 0.85, Penetration 1.15 -Vet3 Damage 1.25, Penetration 1.15
  Panzerelite Light AT Halftrack	255 MP, 40 F, 3 pop	Light AT Halftrack (1.8 ) -Vet1 Received Accuracy 0.75 -Vet2 Penetration 1.2, Speed 1.2, Focus fire cooldown -40s -Vet3 Penetration 1.25, Damage 1.2, Accuracy 1.15, Treadbreaker cooldown -40s
  Panzerelite 88mm Flak 36	450 MP, 220 F, 8 pop	Flak 88 (1.8 ) -Vet1 Regeneration (0.035), Received Damage 0.85 -Vet2 Received Accuracy 0.8, Sight +5 -Vet3 Damage 1.2, Rotation Speed 1.25, Sight +10

  
  
• Why arent Piat-Commandos allowed to use Piat Ambush?
  Because they arent allowed to use it in vCoH.
  
  
• What are the canadian infantry going to be like? Whats their different to normal Tommie Infantry Section
  Canadian Infantry will have a different sound, skin and appereance, not actual gameplay change.
  
  
• Why do those stats look like that?
  

  Churchill AVRE	AVRE Weapon (Recharges 135 seconds)	410 MP, 240 F, 8 pop	Churchill AVRE (1.0) -Vet1 Received Damage 0.85, Speed 1.10 -Vet2 Turret Rotation 1.2, Range +10, Recharge -30s -Vet3 Received Damage 0.85, Recharge -30s
  StuH 42	StuH Weapon (Reloads 7-8 seconds)	380 MP, 180 F, 8 pop	StuH (1.0) -Vet1 Received Damage 0.9 -Vet2 Damage 1.2, Accuracy 1.15, Received Damage 0.85 -Vet3 Received Penetration 0.8, Speed 1.15

• Why does the T4 Royal Engineers Unlock "Hulled Down Command" require the T2 Unlock "Hull" Down to be of any use?
  
  

Well thats all for now, i know it was alot of text but i tried to format it as good as possible to make the numbers work their magic or so  

Thanks for reading anyway, and i'm very grateful for any positive answer, feedback i get.

Greets Lu

Code:

Edith:
#1: DnD Price fixed, 25pder price fixed, bren pop fixed, Piat Mandos Question added.
#2: Added Doctrine Table and Canadian Question
#3: Addred AVRE, StuH table, crossed out a few questions

[Two]

When you say it looks odd you should say why for the few people who cant see it

But very nicely presented, ill read it all in a min

[Mysthalin]

DnD on sappers is 70 mun, gives a mine, a demo, and a minesweeper - a ready-package.

[salan]

was the pricing from the pricing list or from the launcher?  I think a FEW have changed.

things like bren carrier are being addressed in P patch, bren MMG as well.
the brens are actually 4 pop in rgds, and were corrected in the sql(launcher).

[LuAn]

When you say it looks odd you should say why for the few people who cant see it

But very nicely presented, ill read it all in a min

Well i dont really want to, people who care and are interested will spend the time to check it out, if not its fine by me, i just dont wanna say what i think is odd because its just my opinion and i dont wanna provide the lumber for any flame.

DnD on sappers is 70 mun, gives a mine, a demo, and a minesweeper - a ready-package.

Sorry my bad, fixed that.

@Salan
Alot of the pricing comes from the pricing list, but if you tell me whats wrong i'll gladly correct it
Also a few ToV units are missing in the Pricing List and the 6pder and mortar emplacement arent mentioned in the veterancy list.
And somebody mentioned that you will also address the vickers emplacement by making it similiar to the bunker/mg nest.

[Armfelt]

• Why was the Creeping Barrage removed and will it come back? If Yes how?
  
  
• Why does the Howitzer require less xp to vet(only 1.6 compared to 1.8 ) and does 75 more dmg than the 25pder, is less of a target and still costs less mp and a bit more fuel than the 25pder? Why not allow the 25pder to relocate(to somehow compensate it's disadvantages)?
  
  
  
  • Why does the Hummel have such a better accuracy, higher range, requires less xp to vet and lower recharge than the priest considering the priest fires a bit faster and 2 more shells than the hummel.
    

It sucks that hummels got full range when 25 lbr and Priest need to choose a T3 ability. As for now a priest need to move half the map to get into range, just to be ganked by stormtroopers or tanks (light, mid or heavy tanks), I even choosed american armor reinforcements for mines and tanktraps, but that doesnt always help... As a fully based artillery doctrine (RCA), it should either be implemented full range for free or that hummels should be nerfed into priest range. It is too expensive to waste 8 pp for every time axis bum rush to destroy it... I mean it is killed in less than 2 sec and can´t flee due to its original "king-tiger-destroyed-engine-speed".

Heck... Until it is something done about the RCA doctrine i´ll return to my spiggot AVRE. Also the commando and scorched earth needs some love. But especially the commonwealth needs something more than just "mario karts" (BC+PIATS)

[donnieDark]

Interesting read

[Malevolence]

Regarding Tier Implementation:

Looks like Commonwealth is behind on the upper tiers being implemented, probably because they're harder to do (more creative tier powers).

Why cant sappers build tank traps?

Dunno, they should be able to, but it may be difficult to implement if it suffers from the problem of tank traps being a building belonging to wehr/US only. Though I seem to remember sappers being able to do it in retail, so I don't see why they shouldn't be able to here as well.

Why arent sappers allowed to buy mines extra like Engineers?

They have to buy the demolition kit, which also provides a demopack and minesweeper (a 60+ munitions value, yours free! Well, not really...)

Why cant the vickers relocate or properly retreat? (but you can still kill it with double delete) Why not make the vickers emplacement behave like the wehr bunker with a hmg inside where the hmg can relocate to other sides of the emplacement?

It can't retreat/relocate due to a bug the devs can't seem to fix at the moment. It worked fine before but then it got bugged.

The reason it doesn't work like that would be because of its obscenely long range in this mod (something like 50? Outranges HMG42, almost as much as a PaK, if I remember right).

Why does this stats table look so odd?

Because Sappers were used so extensively in combat they got a nerf not only on their PIAT price (was 85) but also their unit cost (was 185 I think). Personally I think the PIAT price nerf was plenty now that Sappers can't repair tanks anymore.

Why isnt Canister Shot on cooldown but on uses?

Because things like Medkit are now on uses and not cooldown when they should be (given the recent combat nerf to medkits).

Why does the Bren Carrier MMG cost 60mp, 60mun more than a Infantry Halftrack if their weapons are almost equivalent and the IHT also acts as a transporter with firing spots? And why does nobody use the Bren MMG?

Bren MMG also has button and AP rounds, so assuming it has the new halftrack armor, I don't see why people would use them as a light vehicle counter.

Why do mortars have those prices considering their various stats:

Look mostly ok but Mortar Halftrack should cost a bit more manpower I think.

[jackmccrack]

Sappers can't build tank traps in vcoh

[Malevolence]

Well I guess that explains that.

[Tymathee]

wow very well put together, just too much to read but yea, CW is getting some love next patch if 'm correct

[Aggamemnon]

Quick point, some of those doctrine choices are not fully complete/realized yet. So some are on 1.5 or 2.5

Also, some of the capabilities compared are doctrinal unlocks, example is triage centre.

Good comparison list and some food for thought I think.

[DasNoob]

Thank you for your post.  This is a shining example of how to post good questions that the dev team will actually look into and use.

I copied this post into the dev forums to draw more attention to it.

Again, thank you for the clarity, and time you put into crafting it.

Also, thank you for doing it in an adult manner, minus all of the bitching, complaints.

[Unkn0wn]

What Dasnoob said, great post!

I'll try to answer some of your questions.

Will sappers be able to build tank traps someday?

I don't see why not. Currently they can't because they can't in vCOH.

Why cant the vickers relocate or properly retreat? (but you can still kill it with double delete) Why not make the vickers emplacement behave like the wehr bunker with a hmg inside where the hmg can relocate to other sides of the emplacement including some minor balance tweaks?

We intend on making the vickers mg nest a fixed emplacement again, like the Wehr MG bunker and US mg nest.

Why do sappers cost 200MP?

I don't think it's entirely right to compare sappers to engineers/pioneers just like that.
First of, there's 4 men at 60 HP each, 240 squad HP. This is considerably more than engineers/pioneers so that alone warrants a higher price. In addition the Piat is a powerful upgrade so you could argue that you're also paying more for the 'platform.
All things considered, you may be correct in concluding that they're a little too pricey, but only by a small margin.

Why was the Creeping Barrage removed and will it come back? If Yes how?

I wasn't even aware it was gone, it used to be in. It's a bug. When it comes back it will be an upgrade, probably on a cooldown.
(And possibly requiring a doctrine unlock)

When will the Overwatch and Counter Battery be implemented and how? Also are those two abilities going to have cancel cooldowns like in vcoh or normal cooldowns similiar to marder lockdown so that the priest is immideatly moveable after canceling?
How do you think should those abilities be brought into the game?

I can't answer these questions as I'm not a coder and we haven't really gone over those abilities in detail yet unfortunately.

Why is the Doctrine Choice to unlock the Overwatch and Counter Battery Ability T3?

That would be because they are perceived as powerful abilities, whether that's a righteous decision is a different matter.
If it turns out they're not worth it (which is very likely) they will definitely go down at least a tier.

Why isnt Canister Shot(85mun) on cooldown but on uses?

We intend on putting it on a cooldown.

Why does the Bren Carrier costs only 30mp and 20fuel less than a Infantry Halftrack whereas: bc =1 squad,4 fire ports; IHT = 2 squads, 3 fire ports, hmg

We are still in the process of finetuning the Bren Carrier.

Why does the Bren Carrier MMG cost 60mp, 60mun more than a Infantry Halftrack if their weapons are almost equivalent and the IHT also acts as a transporter with firing spots? And why does nobody use the Bren MMG?

Because it gets button on a cooldown. It's probably still too expensive for people to consider using it, in addition it doesn't act as a transporter.

Why arent Piat-Commandos allowed to use Piat Ambush?

Must not be in vCOH. If it is in vCOH but not in EIR it's not intended and would be defined as a bug.

What are the canadian infantry going to be like? Whats their different to normal Tommie Infantry Section

Just name and skin/audio. Just for fun and variation really, that and Canadians are cool.
Don't expect to see this any time soon though.

I'm a little too tired to go into the remaining ones about stats, I'll try and get back to that later if no one else does.

[Mysthalin]

Just name and skin/audio. Just for fun and variation really, that and Canadians are cool.

Are you having torjado do the voice-over?

[DasNoob]

CAP TERRITORY !

[deadbolt]

mandos got facepalmed tbh

[salan]

Regarding Tier Implementation:

Looks like Commonwealth is behind on the upper tiers being implemented, probably because they're harder to do (more creative tier powers).

ya a lot of the ones that have gone in so far are simple rgds... a lot of those british ones (throughout the british lists) are going to be swaps or scar and rgd... which the rgd editing folk (myself and previously scyn) are basically unable to do without eirrmod.

[LuAn]

• Why do those stats look like that?
  

  Churchill AVRE	AVRE Weapon (Recharges 135 seconds)	410 MP, 240 F, 8 pop	T2 Unlock 50pp	Churchill AVRE (1.0) -Vet1 Received Damage 0.85, Speed 1.10 -Vet2 Turret Rotation 1.2, Range +10, Recharge -30s -Vet3 Received Damage 0.85, Recharge -30s
  StuH 42	StuH Weapon (Reloads 7-8 seconds)	380 MP, 180 F, 8 pop	T1 Unlock 25pp	StuH (1.0) -Vet1 Received Damage 0.9 -Vet2 Damage 1.2, Accuracy 1.15, Received Damage 0.85 -Vet3 Received Penetration 0.8, Speed 1.15

  
  
• Why does the T4 Royal Engineers Unlock "Hulled Down Command" require the T2 Unlock "Hull" Down to be of any use?

Shamelss bump because of update[/list]

[gamesguy2]

• Why do those stats look like that?
  

  Churchill AVRE	AVRE Weapon (Recharges 135 seconds)	410 MP, 240 F, 8 pop	Churchill AVRE (1.0) -Vet1 Received Damage 0.85, Speed 1.10 -Vet2 Turret Rotation 1.2, Range +10, Recharge -30s -Vet3 Received Damage 0.85, Recharge -30s
  StuH 42	StuH Weapon (Reloads 7-8 seconds)	380 MP, 180 F, 8 pop	StuH (1.0) -Vet1 Received Damage 0.9 -Vet2 Damage 1.2, Accuracy 1.15, Received Damage 0.85 -Vet3 Received Penetration 0.8, Speed 1.15

Shamelss bump because of update

Because the AVRE round does 500 damage while the stuh's does 100 damage.

And the AVRE round has much bigger AOE.[/list]