If wher tanks don't need vet...

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[Demon767]

Yea, make the top MG and Upgun for US armor units start at vet 2 and 3 as well. So you can upgun at vet 2, but no MG or mineflail till 3.

Same with M8 skirts and so on....

the difference is that P4's are spammed a lot and I didn't mention hmgs did I? I played a game where I went up against like 10+ p4's, they just basically kept on coming until we couldn't ill them anymore, we took out at least 8 of them, and all of them had skirts. How many upguns do you see? You rarely see sherman spam with a bunch of upguns, maybe .50 cals but not upguns.

lol im sry man, killed 8 is roughly correct aswell 

[anthony210]

What does being vet 3 have to do with skirts.  Everyone is going to put skirts and an MG on a vet 3 P4.  Are you proposing they get rid of skirts all together lol.

[acker]

How much of an HP boost does the Crab Flail give? Depending on the value, it could be worth putting on a Sherman once it vets.

[LuAn]

Mhm id like to bring up the direct comparison of skirts and hull down:

Hull Down: Doctrine Ability, Tier 2, Costs 50pp + around 50mun(dont now the exact number, sorry) for any tank to purchase, Tank becomes immobile while using it, still able to score rear hits

Panzer 4 Skirts: 60mun, stays mobile

[Illegal_Carrot]

Requiring vet to get Skirts/MG is retarded, and will only further the gap between high-level and/or noob stompers, and new/average players.

[AmPM]

Mhm id like to bring up the direct comparison of skirts and hull down:

Hull Down: Doctrine Ability, Tier 2, Costs 50pp + around 50mun(dont now the exact number, sorry) for any tank to purchase, Tank becomes immobile while using it, still able to score rear hits

Panzer 4 Skirts: 60mun, stays mobile

Its not a problem with skirts, its a problem with Hulldown being a terrible ability.

[CommanderHolt]

Hull down now cost like 30-40muns now.

Having said that, I believe Hull down should get a minor buff like +5 range on all non-firefly tanks in exchange for their immobility.

[Illegal_Carrot]

Mhm id like to bring up the direct comparison of skirts and hull down:

Hull Down: Doctrine Ability, Tier 2, Costs 50pp + around 50mun(dont now the exact number, sorry) for any tank to purchase, Tank becomes immobile while using it, still able to score rear hits

Panzer 4 Skirts: 60mun, stays mobile

Hull down is available to more Brit vehicles than Skirts is to Wehr vehicles, Hull Down affects all incoming fire (Skirts are only affective vs some handheld AT), Skirts still allow Rear hits as well, Skirts are more expensive than Hull Down, etc.
Doesn't mean that Hull Down shouldn't get some sort of buff, but the discrepancy between HD and Skirts isn't as large as you might imagine.

How much of an HP boost does the Crab Flail give?

The Croc Bulldozer gives the Sherman Croc 10% more HP (giving it 700 HP in total), but the Sherman Mine Flail gives no defensive bonus (except clearing mines). It does, however, make the Sherman an even large inf killing machine.

[Smokaz]

Or just buff it to give more resistance, so you are actually forced to outrange it, hit it with high penetration units or flank it. It is a defensive tool after all, and the current bonus doesnt really make up for the immobility 100%. Or you could have a T4/T3 affecting hull down or received penetration to make hulldown bring your tanks defensive bonuses over the top, ensuring the same effect.

Then again, Paks not penetrating a churchill at all out of cloak would be crazy. A firefly can basically become a very nice defensive unit with spotters and hull down if the latter was powerful, backed by a mortar pit/mortars to bring doom upon advancing paks.

I'm not sure the bonuses are too low for being a T2 either, its just a very niche ability.

[Mysthalin]

(Skirts are only affective vs some handheld AT)

Skirts help against every AT weapon and tank gun in the game, actually...
25 percent less incoming penetration and damage from handheld AT.
25 percent less incoming penetration and 10 percent less damage from AT guns and Tank guns.

Hull down is a flat 25 percent less recieved penetration and damage from everything.
Hull down costs 30-40 munitions, and makes the tank immobile, are available to stuarts and staghounds(lol).
Skirts = 60 munitions, non-doctrinal, allow the tank to move still.

Which one would YOU rather have? Honestly, hull down should be free as soon as you unlock it, or grant way less recieved penetration if it still costs anything, so that you could actualy be able to bounce cloaked pak shots.

[AmPM]

I would like to see Hulldown get more of a bonus. Something along the lines of its use.

Bigger defensive buff, maybe an accuracy boost to the gun (less movement, recoil absorbed by the ground, etc).

Not sure it would help a ton even then, but it would make them better turrets.

[Smokaz]

Yeah make it bounce cloaked pak shots. Its a very good idea. Shouldnt have to be that much either, I mean a cloaked pak shot only has like 10 x penetration.

[gamesguy2]

(Skirts are only affective vs some handheld AT)

25 percent less incoming penetration and damage from handheld AT.
25 percent less incoming penetration and 10 percent less damage from AT guns and Tank guns.

Hull down is a flat 25 percent less recieved penetration and damage from everything.
Hull down costs 30-40 munitions, and makes the tank immobile, are available to stuarts and staghounds(lol).
Skirts = 60 munitions, non-doctrinal, allow the tank to move still.

Which one would YOU rather have? Honestly, hull down should be free as soon as you unlock it, or grant way less recieved penetration if it still costs anything, so that you could actualy be able to bounce cloaked pak shots.

Your numbers are way off.

Skirts do not offer any received penetration bonuses against ATGs, tank guns, arty, etc, only zooks and RR, not even piats.

Skirts only offer a 10% received damage bonus vs tank guns and artillery, it does NOT affect ATGs.

And of course skirts offer a 25% dmg reduction vs zooks, RR, and piats.

So to sum it up

25% less received penetration and damage vs RR and zooks.
25% less received damage vs piats.
10% less received damage vs tank guns and artillery.

Hull down is:

25% less received penetration and damage vs all weapons.

Hull down offer vastly better bonuses, with the obvious downside of it making your tank static.

[Illegal_Carrot]

Skirts help against every AT weapon and tank gun in the game, actually...
25 percent less incoming penetration and damage from handheld AT.
25 percent less incoming penetration and 10 percent less damage from AT guns and Tank guns.

Wrong.
Skirts provide 25% less damage and penetration to Zooks and RRs (though, as a side note, RRs only have a 12% pen reduction against StuGs), and only a 25% damage reduction vs PIATs.
They provide a 10% damage reduction to some other weapons (and no pen modifiers), though this 10% damage reduction does not apply to AT Guns.

You should not be going Hull Down in a situation where you're likely to get surrounded by AT weapons, so the fact that you're immobile should mean very little, actually.

[Nijo]

Elitgen didn't liked my rifel men with LT ^^ but that was in a time where you got FOO with them...

[Smokaz]

What british reinforcement units do you use to vet up the LT for your american company?

[LuAn]

Honestly, hull down should be free as soon as you unlock it

That one please.

Btw did anyone confirm yet that LT affects american units?

BTW#2: I dont care about Hull Down making my tanks immobile, but being forced to buy it for every single tank extra besides the t2 unlock is just ....

[Nijo]

It was easyly possible befor the last wipe out. I startetd with 2 Brengun Tommys and a LT with FOO. Simply wipe out the axis start call in with them ^^ and get Vet1 with the LT. And their is the Fire up. Now you only have to keep the LT alive....

i had some vet2 LT but only 1 Vet3.... they die so fucking fast ^^

But now this is no longer possible

i cryed when i readed that my company was no longer possible xD

[BigDick]

skirts without vet are ok

they costs crapload of munitions a panzer4 fully upgraded takes 170 munition (skirt, mg, repair)

.50cal on shermans are at vet0 too

its not skirts @vet0 are to good its hulldown is just terrible for a doctrinal T2 ability that costs munitions and is temporary and makes your tank immobilized while activated

and @tym

in a 3v3 10Panzer4 are just as usual as 10 shermans....all of my us companies have 4 shermans...i would even get 5 of them when it would be 5 in reserve

only some hardcore AB spam companies (they should have the most little problems with P4) or armor with pershings should have less then 4 shermans