Mudkip's Airborne Balance thread

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[Smokaz]

Here is mudkipz balance thread where he himself will make comments upon the balance of the current airborne doctrine.

Topics Mudkipz will debate:

- Strafing run as a T2: should it be a T3?
- Bar/Nade price on the superior platform airborne compared to rifles
- Airborne Elite granting +5 range on the most accurate, quickest to aim and always penetrating handheld AT making them impossible to kite

I give you the floor you magnificent man

[Mysthalin]

Strafing run as a T2... It can't hurt tanks, it can't hurt anything in cover, it can't do anything to garrisoned units, it doesnt' do anything to bunkers, takes forever to fly in from the edge of the map to hit. It should NOT be a T3, unless we move rocket arty, V1s and firestorm to T4, as well as 105 off-map to T3(basicaly, all off-maps go +1 Tier in their doctrinal trees).

Precision strike as implemented at all. Why did blitzkrieg even need it? It's basically a no warning insta-rape any support weapon off-map. Hey, it's a T2 as well :O. To a doctrine that never had off-maps in it's entire history :S.

BAR/nade price on the supperior platform airborne compared to rifles. Let's increase the price of the riflemen BAR in airborne companies as well - the dreaded airborne might pick up the BARs and rape unsuspecting axis infantry! The nade should cost the same as it does on regular airborne.

[Smokaz]

I've just made a powerpoint post for Mudkipz to help out sorting his thoughts as he is the most experienced AB player ingame atm based on issues we agreed upon maybe being issues in vent.
 
edited this post: Im not gonna discuss balance with mysthalin until I am convinced that he's after more than always disagreeing with anything I say and generally just discuss for the "thrill" of the argument. I've grown tired of catering to his posting style which I find illogical. Live long & Prosper!

[Mukip]

lol, fine.

Strafe:  No need to be a tier 3, but it should suppress instead of pin and cost more SP for the second use.  Costs 4 SP currently, could cost 6-8 instead.  Not that it matters to me, but I probably wouldn't be playing with a 90-game account if warmap was in.  Strafe is too strong currently.

Airborne Rifles:  They get grenades cheaper than regular AB which should be fixed to be the same (40 muni).  I don't normally use so many AB squads with bars but I knew you were planning on using terror zeal.  They could probably get an added 10 muni privelage cost for being on a platform with fire up. 

So if both these were in I would be 80 muni down on my company in the last game because I had 4 squads with bars and grenades.

AB elite range bonus:  Remove range bonus, removed Improved Barrels from Blitz.  All weapons use vCoH ranges.

[Mysthalin]

And It can pin units in cover quite well actually. But how would you know?

it can only pin units in cover if it comes in from the wrong direction of the cover.

I would know because I played EiR way more than you have, and guess what was my first ever doctrine that I played for roughly three months as my main, with an impresive 10:1 win loss ratio?
Guess what was the T4 I chose? And later, what was my T3 when I switched T4s?

Only 2 strafes in my entire career as an axis player, constantly playing versus air supperiority on RTC, have ever actualy dealt damage to me. One time I lost a KCH squad and an MP40 volks squad while they were charging down some RRs, the other time I lost 3 gren squads with grenades as they were on a road, and didn't have enough time to move out of the strafe, or get into cover.

Btw try using precision strike to take out anything else but a completely still support weapon or supressed units, it mega fails. A strafe can literally retreat all your infantry instantly if its paired with grenades and flamers moving up on the pinned troops

Btw, rocket arty can remove 2 tanks, and literally retreat all your infantry instantly, if it's paired with grenades and flamers moving up on the pinned troops. Tell me, which is more efficient - removing a stuka with a strafe, or a cali with a rocket arty?

[EliteGren]

Well there is one thing you are missing out: Rocket arty is a TIER 3 unlike strafe. If someone wants to waste his T3 for a single free offmap, it better be good.

[Mysthalin]

Which is exactly my point - rocket arty is supperior in every way to the strafe, yet smokie wants them both to be T3. Balanced, eh?

[spinn72]

lol, fine.

Strafe:  No need to be a tier 3, but it should suppress instead of pin and cost more SP for the second use.  Costs 4 SP currently, could cost 6-8 instead.  Not that it matters to me, but I probably wouldn't be playing with a 90-game account if warmap was in.  Strafe is too strong currently.

Airborne Rifles:  They get grenades cheaper than regular AB which should be fixed to be the same (40 muni).  I don't normally use so many AB squads with bars but I knew you were planning on using terror zeal.  They could probably get an added 10 muni privelage cost for being on a platform with fire up. 

So if both these were in I would be 80 muni down on my company in the last game because I had 4 squads with bars and grenades.

AB elite range bonus:  Remove range bonus, removed Improved Barrels from Blitz.  All weapons use vCoH ranges.

fantastic post.  I approve of everything said here.

Firestorm is the most powerful T2 offmap, Strafing run is second most powerful.  They should remain T2s but cost more SP or even get 0 free uses.

[EIRRMod]

Firestorm is the most powerful T2 offmap, Strafing run is second most powerful.  They should remain T2s but cost more SP or even get 0 free uses.

T2's are meant to have 0 free, we'll get them when we do some parses over stuff.
Well, thats the plan.  Strafe more than likely will be 1 free still, while FS will be an initial SP cost, but lower to purchase.  ITS ALL RANDOM!
(I use the magic hat method)

[Talas]

Firestorm can oblitarte healing stations and since it got a circular area, it's much easier to kill off a lot of supportweapons (which sometimes also get destroyed). SR only works on inf. and doesn't destroy support weapons (unless low health).

SR is fine, and shouldn't cost 6-8, howi. barrage cost 4!

Firestorm isn't fine for a T2 because it's more usefull.

[Smokaz]

Also, I believe RR's need to go up to 195~ munitions. Storm shreks are 280 munitions, for measure. Are storms that much better at AT duty than airborne? No, I strongly disagree with that notion. They are used differently, and being caught in supression is game over for storms. Airborne run out of it with fireup. Airborne continually nip at you with perfect accuracy and can take a bigger beating than stormtroopers. Are stormtroopers nasty? Definitely, but airborne can be just as nasty and by far much harder to "pin" and bring down.

[Illegal_Carrot]

Also, I believe RR's need to go up to 195~ munitions. Storm shreks are 280 munitions, for measure. Are storms that much better at AT duty than airborne? No, I strongly disagree with that notion. They are used differently, and being caught in supression is game over for storms. Airborne run out of it with fireup. Airborne continually nip at you with perfect accuracy and can take a bigger beating than stormtroopers. Are stormtroopers nasty? Definitely, but airborne can be just as nasty and by far much harder to "pin" and bring down.

Being on both the giving and receiving end of an RR, I have to agree. RRs are ridiculously good, though I doubt that increasing their price would help alleviate the problem at all.

[CafeMilani]

strafe should definately be a t3 because it can kill all axis AT with ease..and every other main force too.

[Pak88mm]

airborne are more effective than storms for having more staying power and easier to control than storms. People bitch at storms that can instant gib a tank but once thats done they are vunerable to BARs and instant suppression. i never understand the massive gimping of storms they are extremely hard to micro and pretty much its noobs that cried nerf since they cant figure out for the life of them to use recon squads or jeep rather than spamming units that dont counter their camo.

Airbornes only good counter is assault units and god knows thats few, stg44s pgrena kch and falls. You dont run tanks at AB or Light armor and they have the advantage of fire up and nades to deal with half dead squads. Im ok with airborne since i dont have much problems with them since my falls can rip em apart.

I dont have issues with dealing with either of these units smokaz is just crying cuz he cant for the life of him figure out how to beat mudkips and has made it his jihad to do the best thing every crying noob does.....cry nerf enough and your wish shall be granted.

[Pak88mm]

i rarely see strafes used with airborne players and to that effect most arent that effective if anything their instant pin is their best asset. then again thats why bars exist....nerf that while you are it.

[Mysthalin]

strafe should definately be a t3 because it can kill all axis AT with ease..and every other main force too.

I did not know strafing run kills marders, panthers and GWGs all that effectively :O. I'll have to try it again some time soon!

If strafe should be a T3, preci strike should be as well - it rapes any support weapon you chose instantly, making it the ultimate vet-hunting off-map. So should butterfly bombs, because they can kill an entire PIAT blob, and kill AT guns very effectively too, not to mention the constant engine criticals on vehicles and tanks. Actualy, due to all these things, the butterfly bombs should be a T4!

*points out it is sarcasm, just in case*

Man, there was a reason why you had been banned from balance discussions, and that post of yours pretty much sums the reason why INSTANTLY.


I thought I'd never say it, but pak is right - airborne aren't OP, and smokaz just can't accept that he's being defeated by skill, not disbalances.

[EliteGren]

Rofl, you trying to say mudkips has more skill than smokaz?
Im sure smokaz would kick his ass with anything mudkips plays that is not an airborne company.

[Jazlizard]

LoL, this thread is gonna go downhill fast isn't it?

Look Mudkips already posted his thoughts on some possible changes, and they all look pretty good to me.

[Mysthalin]

Actually, yes, by quite a fair margin. Smokaz is hardly the most skilled player in EiR, as he sometimes tries to make himself out to be - he is severely lacking in tank micro, has rather good infantry micro, and a good understanding of what counters what, but he lacks in some departements, which forbid him from being actually really good.

Mudkip has a good tactical and strategic grasp of the metagame, he understands the counters system very well too, and has great micro on both his infantry and tanks. He is the better player in this case.

[EliteGren]

Well I would definitely love to see mudkips axis vs Smokaz americans, im sure you would be suprised by the result.