Elite Infantry way too many!

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[Tymathee]

I know what he wants, he wants to limit them. But what I'm trying to say is that there's already a limiting device in. If they want more than 4, they've gotta pay up, which takes away from their PP and if they keep them alive, they gain vet, which means they gotta spend SP and elite inf vet costs a lot, so then you gotta spend more PP to get more SP.

 Yes they do have something in place to prevent spaming elite infantry but this is a beta and things are not set in stone so stop acting like this is a final product .
 Its obvious that elite infantry are being abused no one is being one sided its all elite infantry and has I stated and you stated heavy Tanks availability might need to be looked at as well...
 

i have no problem with anything being spammed since it can negatively affect you. We killed one of those jagds, that's a good 20pp i think, what a waste.

[cobol]

The thing is like illegal carrot say, higher players throw elite infantry in battle like toys.

I dont wan to take the allies their option of handheld at weapons.
Put them on 4 or 5 squads max. and give all U.S line infantry the option to buy a zook or so.

I play allies as well so i dont want just to nerf allies to win easier, that is really not my intention.
And btw these reinforcments packages shouldnt be consist elite infantry, Every doctrine has his strengths and lacks in another way to fight. Atm u just need to spend the pps for a reinforcments package and then go on buying until the lack of your doctrine is gone. this i think shouldnt be too.

Elite infantry shouldbe some special troop type, which are very effective in sone kind of warfare, but atm they are nearly everwhere in masses.

And the same is for some heavy tanks. this oversupply option isnt really needed for some troop types.


And sry for my bad english, i am not so good in english =)

[Smokaz]

Imo both rangers and storms are too expensive munitions wise atm to be "spammed". Airborne (and to perhaps a lesser degree, fallschirms) are both cheap/powerful enough to make up large amounts of a company's counters. Maybe big price increases on the munition upgrades and instead making their veterancy much more powerful than "normal" infantry would preserve their "elite status" and the possibility of them remaining in reinforcement packages yet decreasing their ability to make up the main counter system of a company.

If availability of all elite infantry was set to 0 on top of this, and in supply set to 3 or 4 with a 5 pp price on each unit, the reaction from other players could change like this

Previous reaction: "My god, look at that huge blob of vet 3 airborne. Bye bye my lover (to tank)"

New reaction: "He dropped his vet 3 fallschirm squads, the only two in his company. We better get some tanks to counter those mofos asap. Those guys turn games if they are left to their devices"

Summary of proposed changes:

All elite infantry have availability of 0, 5pps to supply 1 squad, 20 pps to oversupply
Their veterancy is twice as powerful as normal infantry
Their munition based upgrades goes slightly up in price for rangers/storms and sizably for fallschirms/ab

[Demon767]

that wouldnt solve anything, if someone puts his vet 3 fallschirms thats only 4 pop. its just that unit it so much better at killing infantry, i like your "new reaction" except the part as if your makign it sound bad.

[Two]

that wouldnt solve anything, if someone puts his vet 3 fallschirms thats only 4 pop. its just that unit it so much better at killing infantry, i like your "new reaction" except the part as if your makign it sound bad.

So much better is a understatement, they rape all other infantry in seconds.

[Demon767]

Lol yes with the buffs. anyways i have another idea to ur suggestion smokaz

if it happens like that people will need to adapt, some people fail to see that sometimes, instead of calling in 2 falls (or any other elite infantry for that matter) they might want to put them in seperate call ins.

ive heard people speak about heavy tank spam, i dont believe ive seen this. whats been happening?

[Smokaz]

The idea is good because careful use of them would leave them on the field and retain their special feeling, as for the rest of your post about tanks mumbo jumbo ftw? Cant understand half of what you are writing.

[Talas]

Elite units are fine IMO (stat-wise), they are not cost-effective is used poorly. Maybe slight cost increase. Why?

Well, I for exemple don't use elite inf. I got, one, rangersqd in my inf. company but like every game it gets around 20 inf. kills and 2-3 light vecihle (?) kills.

The thing with elite infantry is to bind up enemy with volks/grens/rifles and make the elites flank or charge head on, then displace them. I use elite like mortars/mgs, in terms of displaceing them constantly, waiting for the enemy to open up a flank AND it prevents them from getting chased down by a tank. A mg that's being displacing counts as two, one ghost-mg that can lock sectors and one real. Not knowing where the enemys elites are is just as bad.


As for allied handheld AT and grens and all that. When compareing US and Wehr (which is mostly done due to they are the "basic" factions) people tend to forget their attributes. Wehr are better at medium/long range but US is much better at close range, stickies and atgs are lethal, shrecks are lethal alone but are easily kited, hence the paks to makes enemy circle-strafe... etc.

In those terms, things are pretty balanced ability- and weaponwise, cost isn't thou.


By a coincidence, I'm writing a post about wehr/us-terms and how it affect EiR, please read

[Demon767]

hmm the cost increase wouldnt help, it may limit the players that elite spam, BUT it will also hinder those who dont oversupply them. just making it impossible to oversupply, availability of 4 should do the trick.

man i sound like a broken record haha.

[Smokaz]

How would it hinder those who dont oversupply them?

[Demon767]

because of the actions of the oversupplies, now the people who didnt oversupply have to pay more for there elite inf. i believe the cost is fine atm.

[Talas]

hmm, maybe just change popcap? Like snipers u pay popcap to limit support. In the terms of elite, it makes its harder to blob but still pack a punch to your regular infantry. Maybe?

Rangers back to 7, KCH to 6(7 with oakleaves) and storms to 6, etc. Especially if elites are getting avability like 4/0/0 they might need a price reduction manpower-wise, to encourage basic inf. although munis stay almost the same, maybe slitghty cheaper.

[Demon767]

the allies will feel the burn from the nerf stick more if the pop was rised, the elite inf aint that good for a pop increase.

[Smokaz]

The plan in the original idea was to make the cost increase still worth it through the veterancy, but still leaving you vulnerable to being forced to retreat them if a hard counter to that elite infantry show up with them being unsupported. When I said veterancy should be really good for them, I meant really really good. The cost increase would mean nothing if you put them to perfect use.

This promotes having fewer of them on the field at once as although they excel at their role, losing them without causing enough damage back to the opposing player would be a horrible blow and slow their vet gain which is in the end what would make their price acceptable.

For example if two vet 1 fsj without sprint get jumped by a flank speed croc without support, they would have no choice to retreat. In the current system you can field 4 of them as luftwaffe without any risk to your company, + 2 more.

With my changes it would be in the player's interest to play intelligently and perfecly with his elite infantry unless he wants to risk the big amount of pps invested in them being lost or not gaining enough back in terms of kills to make their weapon upgrades cost-effective. Airborne especially are retardedly good investment for your munitions.

In the current system for a oversupplier losing 2 fsj means that he's just down part of his elite infantry, but its no biggie since he can have so many of them and they cost so little munitions for their power and fielding 4 or less costs him nothing to begin with.

With this system your fsj would run even faster from smoke barrages, demon. But in the games they were supported properly they would rape like true heroes and loved even more cause they are PP-based and few in numbers. They'd be the pershings, king tigers and jagdpanthers of the infantry war. There would be no spam of them and if you employed them in a intelligent and supported manner, they would do very well. There would be a risk involved and the choice not to risk anything by fielding larger numbers of upgraded normal infantry. You could have that 1 special squad always perfectly melding with your other forces, gamble on your 4 stormtrooper squads turning the game or set sail for the sea of regular infantry winning the game through good play and larger numbers.

The idea stands uncontested by real argument, so far.

[Demon767]

ok let me get this straight, you have to pay 5 pp each for 4 Elite INF + they now cost more resources and but there vet strentgh has increased considerable, but if you want to oversupply them, the 5th-6th-7th etc now cost 20pps?

[Talas]

Makeing vet to good will increase vet-hunting (not that its not a big of a problem imo) and make it more vet-farming? Hmm, vet is fine as it's procentual, strong base = stronger effect from vet.

Don't touch vet that much!

[Smokaz]

Best part of thread !

I'll sum up my idea for you:

All elite infantry have availability of 0
They cost 5 pp per squad to buy
Their veterancy is significantly improved
Their manpower munitions price is significantly Increased
Oversupplying a single squad = 20 pps (Now we can talk grinder for PPs)

- Losing whole squads is punished harshly in different ways:
1) You pay out of your ass to replace them for the next game
2) A very important expensive part of your company just got removed in the game you are playing
3) They died possibly without paying for themselves, leaving you open to attrition
- Oversupplying them is horribly expensive
- No pop increase stops hard counters from just being fielded easily and allows them support
- Their cost-effectiveness is closer tied to their veterancy

But on the plus side...
- They rape extremely hard at vet 3
- Proper use of them in small numbers is rewarded greatly
- You'll love them even more since they are more special than before
- The difference in overall cost of your company selections just got pleasantly more complicated: lots of basic upgraded inf, or fewer of them backed by some upgraded specialists?

There's tons of observations that support this..heres a few:
- People are using way too much elite infantry atm (this thread is a symptom of it)
- People already care greatly for their PP units (example: chung and his vet 3 tiger, demon and his vet 3 fsj)
- Only harsh PP loss is continously avoided
- People care for their "special tanks" why wouldnt they care for their special infantry

Additional thoughts.. Allied availability should obviously be slightly higher (like 1 extra) and axis veterancy be slightly better to maintain overall consistency between allies and axis.

[Smokaz]

As for vet hunting.. dry your tears, gentlemen. It happens and is part of the game. Arguably you are partly decreasing that enemy company's ability to beat you another game, which is in your interest.

[Aggamemnon]

Just remove oversupply imo. (as I've always said).

[Rocksitter]

 I have to agree with you on this smoke wonderful idea .it would put elite back into elite infantry..

 At first I didnt like paying the 5 pps idea for them but when I think about it this could do the trick nicely ..