[British, Royal Engineers] Tankshock + flank speed

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[Smokaz]

I think it needs a small tune. Right now it instapins from the same tank that can buy flank speed.

Good-bye infantry if you are targeted by this combo, auf wiedersehen grenadiers. 

In a decent player's hand you can wipe out two squads of shrek grens in 2-3 seconds with no counter other than jumping in a building. (Which you can't anyway when you are pinned)

From the top down micro perspective, there's no other counter to it than pre-emtively jumping in a bunker or a building.. which churchills generally hit well or flame out. However the reaction time for doing so if the british player uses flank speed and THEN tank shock.. is a very very limited.

Maybe this is a bit much? Maybe tank shock and flank speed should not be purchasable/activatable on the same tank, or tank shock shouldn't insta-pin, or the duration of the effect should be shorter. I wouldn't mind two churchills being able to pull this off together.

Its "shock" not "long term trauma with therapy for 2-3 years". Those guys stay pinned for a long time. It seems over the top, thats for sure. The royal engineers players should comment themself.

With 5 seconds of supression a good player could achieve the same as now, but a lesser player wouldnt be able to carmageddon all your guys without the current like 20-30 seconds of PIN!

[CommieKillerz]

dude its not flank speed its T4 Flanking Maneuvers

i think this ability is still weak for a T4

[Smokaz]

It should be renamed "M10 Crush Churchills"

[Baine]

Yeah, tank shock is a bitch especially on churchill crocodiles, but then again infantry is the only thing it is good against.
Try it's hardcounters, what would be every other tank or atgun.

[CommieKillerz]

Yeah, tank shock is a bitch especially on churchill crocodiles, but then again infantry is the only thing it is good against.
Try it's hardcounters, what would be every other tank or atgun.

exactly

[Draken]

well if it's T4 it's not op.

[Sharpshooter824]

Reminds me of something like... Zeal + ferocity + IA is it? rofl I saw this in action and even tho its a T4 and T1 or what ever I must say Its OP, full auto shreck 1 man squad gunned down a croc in seconds... and no it wasn't my croc or my shreck gren. this tank shock + flank speed also seems to be a bit OP tbh, doctrines in a whole need to be toned down a lot

[Smokaz]

The thing is .. that you can counter IA and ferocity very easily with some simple tank micro like I've throughly given example of in that thread, and your supporting infantry will be able to eliminate stupidly used IA/Ferocity squads very easily. You also affect ALL of your infantry, so everything will have to be in cover or facing stuff they can overpower or it will die. There's a downside and its that the affected squads take almost double damage + that zeal benefits on 2 and 1 man squads open you up to snipers giving you a horrible day. I could ask what the downside to tank shock and flank speed is, but I know the answer: there is no downside to it.

There's no micro available to counter churchills doing tankshock + flank speed. There's buildings, which is map dependant. Using tanks from long range against handheld AT, is not as map dependant. I'd like to hear someone explain how you micro your infantry against a flank speed churchill coming at ridicolous speed out of the FOW and immediatly using tank shock.

You don't see axis tanks carmageddon allied infantry because of button and stickies, and you definitely shouldn't try to carmageddon ferocity shreks. In a recent game against you, you had flank speed on all your medium/heavy tanks and attempted to mancrush my units and it was punished so I think that colours your view on Ferocity/IA.

I agree that some of the doctrine content should be toned down though, and a few of the new units need more balancing.

[sgMisten]

Well though ferocity+IA can get a 3 man shrek squad to fire a shreck every 1.5 seconds or so, which does own most allied tanks not a churchill or pershing.

[Smokaz]

I agree it owns tanks that are being used like you used your tanks in the last game we played as well misten - as infantry crush machines. Is it really so bad that wehrmacht has one doctrine that fiercely can defeat attempts at crushing whole squads? I M10 crush full vet 3 squads all the time, but if I was facing a Ferocity build, I would not attempt it. Ferocity buffs the AT capability of grenadiers, increasing RoF on snipers for a short duration, helps bigger numbers to quickly dispatch smaller numbers. And the closer you get to ferocity squads the more damage they put out - kinda fitting name, dont you think?

There's also a reason why the shrek has 0.35 accuracy at long range, and 1 at short.

[Tymathee]

and it's not really flank speed, it's a click able ability that you can only use so many times that affects all allies (and vehicles) but yea, the pin shouldn't be so long and really shouldn't be on crocs because if i remember, tank shock in vcoh was only on the normal churchill.

[LuAn]

In my opinion tank shock should just be tuned town a bit, tune down the suppression pulses a bit and it should be fine.

[pqumsieh]

Its on crocs too I believe; just not the AVRE. This discussion is a bit ironic since I recently posted something similar about ferocity + zeal + AI. It comes down to 2 things; first, abilities stack and can be used in powerful combos. Second, tank shock is a very powerful ability BUT it’s on a not so powerful platform (minus the croc). Since the croc is a T3, I find its additional power balanced, so any argument about whether or not it should have TS is mute imo.

How do you counter a Churchill with flank speed? Either run like hell or make sure you have some AT backing up your infantry. Smokaz, your examples seem to be a bit narrow, as they are conveniently ignorant of the fact that a) you will have a teammate near by who can back you up if needed, and b) if you are NOT using combined arms (for example, relying on greds with shreks to cover your AT) then don't complain when your lack of flexibility costs you a squad or two. Frankly, if someone rushes into your side of the battlefield they should either lose that unit or take significant damage. Tank shock might negate your infantry, but it won’t negate a pak or tanks.

I'm not trying to flame/be a dick, but you’re doing the same thing I did in my last thread about zeal + ferocity. That is, failing to see the drawbacks and requirements of these abilities and the ways they ought to be countered. What if someone uses flank speed thinking they'll supress some infantry for easy mode and end up meeting a horde of AT, dieing in seconds. On the other hand, a person might use intell and tactics to properly catch your infantry (and you) offguard, crushing them and reeping the rewards of a well thought out ambush. Frankly, there are a lot of abilities in this mod that have the same potential to be damaging and annoying/abusing. The best we can do for now is bring it up to the devs attention (which you have) and continue playing while trying to avoid further engagements as best as possible. To take a page from your books, if you know your playing with a brit who has flanking maneuver and using churchills, protect your infantry with other forms of AT.

PQ

Edit: tank shock should not be tuned down back its on a weak platform imo. Minus teh croc, churchhills wouldnt even be used if it wasnt for tank shock. You may as well argue that skirts should be removed from axis tanks if thats the case.

[Smokaz]

Its on crocs too I believe; just not the AVRE. This discussion is a bit ironic since I recently posted something similar about ferocity + zeal + AI. It comes down to 2 things; first, abilities stack and can be used in powerful combos. Second, tank shock is a very powerful ability BUT it’s on a not so powerful platform (minus the croc). Since the croc is a T3, I find its additional power balanced, so any argument about whether or not it should have TS is mute imo.

How do you counter a Churchill with flank speed? Either run like hell or make sure you have some AT backing up your infantry. Smokaz, your examples seem to be a bit narrow, as they are conveniently ignorant of the fact that a) you will have a teammate near by who can back you up if needed, and b) if you are NOT using combined arms (for example, relying on greds with shreks to cover your AT) then don't complain when your lack of flexibility costs you a squad or two. Frankly, if someone rushes into your side of the battlefield they should either lose that unit or take significant damage. Tank shock might negate your infantry, but it won’t negate a pak or tanks.

I'm not trying to flame/be a dick, but you’re doing the same thing I did in my last thread about zeal + ferocity. That is, failing to see the drawbacks and requirements of these abilities and the ways they ought to be countered. What if someone uses flank speed thinking they'll supress some infantry for easy mode and end up meeting a horde of AT, dieing in seconds. On the other hand, a person might use intell and tactics to properly catch your infantry (and you) offguard, crushing them and reeping the rewards of a well thought out ambush. Frankly, there are a lot of abilities in this mod that have the same potential to be damaging and annoying/abusing. The best we can do for now is bring it up to the devs attention (which you have) and continue playing while trying to avoid further engagements as best as possible. To take a page from your books, if you know your playing with a brit who has flanking maneuver and using churchills, protect your infantry with other forms of AT.

PQ

Edit: tank shock should not be tuned down back its on a weak platform imo. Minus teh croc, churchhills wouldnt even be used if it wasnt for tank shock. You may as well argue that skirts should be removed from axis tanks if thats the case.

AT backing up your infantry? Running, while pinned? How much AT do you think you would you need to have to frag a flank speed churchill from instacrushing your infantry? It takes a few seconds to gib a squad with this combo.Secondly I agreed in your nerf ferocity thread that IA and Ferocity shouldn't stack, so I see nothing ironic with this thread. Nothing can kill a churchill fast enough coming in with that kind of speed, not even the super powerful ferocity/IA because it doesnt break pin. The time it takes to perform this move and then be on your way is nothing compared to notify and having a ally suddendly deploy all his AT in force.

I did not know that it was a T4 though, which makes it seem more acceptable. Guess I'll have to screen my shreks with mines to stop this, I wonder if flank speed gets canceled by engine damage.

Also you'll be forced into baiting the churchill player to trying to pin some kind of sacrificial infantry so your shreks can move up to engage.

When you think about it, there is more stuff you can do to reduce the effectivity to it than I initially thought, yay for forum discussion improving my game! 

[LuAn]

Royal Engineers T4: Flanking Maneuvers: 20% more sight, 20% less incoming accuracy, and 20% more accuracy, and 80% faster speed while active, will last 1 minute.

[pqumsieh]

@ smokaz; yea i wasnt trying to be a dick or anything, and typing can sometimes give that impression despite best intentions. yea, it can be countered but not without a lot of work.

baiting and mining seems to be the trick these days, players always fall for it and you always end up with the biggest stick. my thoughts at least.

PQ

[VERTIGGO]

I think originally Churchill tank shock was a targeted ability that could be used on one squad if it was in range. Apparently they even broke it in vCoH as well because it now suppresses in a radius. However, the current EIRR version is absolutely broken. Instantly pinning an unlimited number of squads means a guaranteed 6-12 kills for 40 munitions, which is not OP, it's simply BULL. Add two stacking speed upgrades for churchills which grants a total of 95% speed increase as well. That makes the churchill as fast as a blitzkrieg enabled panther, except oh wait, it can also command every infantry man to lie down, and proceed to be harvested like a flipping potato field. Everyone on this forum knows it takes far to long to stop a churchill even with reasonable (multiple paks) AT support so I don't want to hear a word about how easy it is to stop a churchill.

Case in point, in a recent game:
A churchill was limping away with a sliver of health (it would have taken one at shot from anything). My vet 3 double schreck storms and a gren squad with a PIAT chase after it. It is severely damaged, so it's easy to catch. However, before the godlike schrecks have their vacation time to track the thing, it uses tank shock, instantly pinning both squads, and proceeds to back up slowly and crush half of them before they can register the retreat command. What I want to know is, how the heck is this tractor beam justified? What are my veterans so shocked by? a barely mobile pile of junk that can't even get away, and its backside is so terrifying that the most experienced troops in the battalion jam their head in the sand?

[jackmccrack]

Tanks, even Stugs, can put an end to a Churchill rush.

[VERTIGGO]

Tanks, even Stugs, can put an end to a Churchill rush.

so your saying after I let my StuG pound away at him for 5 minutes I should be good? I'll try that one

[Malevolence]

Tanks, even Stugs, can put an end to a Churchill rush.

Actually the statistics favor the Mk6 Churchill over the Stug in a front-to-front battle at any range. And if we're talking about flanking maneuvers, that means this Mk6 is moving at roughly 8 speed. Know what else moves at 8 speed? An armored car.


After ten shots the fight between the two will often still not be over, and by then the mk6 has run in, squished your men, circled your other stug, and run off into the night in no danger whatsoever.