State of this mod....

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[Sach]

You have to balance at the best players though. If you have an ability or playstyle that gives a slight advantage at the average players' level and is balanced there it can quickly turn in to a ridiculously overpowered ability at the higher levels of play.

You want to balance for fun at all levels but from pure balance you really have to look at 'what is the most extreme outcome of this change' and not 'whats the average outcome of this change.'

[Smokaz]

You have to balance at the best players though. If you have an ability or playstyle that gives a slight advantage at the average players' level and is balanced there it can quickly turn in to a ridiculously overpowered ability at the higher levels of play.

You want to balance for fun at all levels but from pure balance you really have to look at 'what is the most extreme outcome of this change' and not 'whats the average outcome of this change.'

Completely agree. Not with a few dictacting the many, but with the top-down perspective. Take for example ABE. If you just run your AB blob through mp44s to kill a tank, the extra range doesn't seem as broken. Its when you experience that you can't combat them with tanks because they are "kiting" anti infantry tanks, the range, health and fireup on AB seems very overwhelming. The top-down perspective should apply the most  in EIRR balancing because this perspective observe the very limit of what you can squeeze out of a unit.

[Sach]

I don't really understand the new airbourne elite. When I first started playing EIR AB Elite gave something like 20 range 20 sight 20% accuracy and I and a few others showed it was clearly overpowered. You never got suppressed since you saw hmgs before they saw you and you could kill ostwinds and p4s from outside their sight.

It got changed to 20% accuracy 20% damage 20% health or something similar and was much more balanced. It should never have gone back to sight and range.

Also when Raid Assault was popular a few wars ago you could counter AB blobs with 1 ostwind and 1 bike and you can't do that with the new ABE.

[Smokaz]

I don't really understand the new airbourne elite. When I first started playing EIR AB Elite gave something like 20 range 20 sight 20% accuracy and I and a few others showed it was clearly overpowered. You never got suppressed since you saw hmgs before they saw you and you could kill ostwinds and p4s from outside their sight.

It got changed to 20% accuracy 20% damage 20% health or something similar and was much more balanced. It should never have gone back to sight and range.

Also when Raid Assault was popular a few wars ago you could counter AB blobs with 1 ostwind and 1 bike and you can't do that with the new ABE.

Its the same for a lot of things. Most people weren't vetting up a PE panther quite a few patches back when they had retardedly good range increase from veterancy and could basically "kite" 57mms.  But when you encountered bbqpitboy's vet 3 PE panther which outranged your 57mm and he just stayed at that range like it was a mobile 88, the balance problem became very apparent.

Also Telescopic sights is another broken doctrine ability which you don't understand how broken it is before some douche blobbing 2-3 50mm ATHT's together insta snipes your 57mm with the tank damage global ability. Again the whole counter system gets flushed down the toilet.

Range increases is the most dangerous stat to toy with, imo. Relic designed the initial ranges for the majority of their units very well.

[pqumsieh]

agree with smokaz, I've been playign with telescopic sights for a while and I must say, not even just for the 50mm, my hetzers own most tanks of the battlefield including FF....and thats just not right. (Hetzer has 60m range btw, jag is at 55, 50mm is at 65)

In other words, stop buffing range...even airborne elite should be changed if we go this route as well as improved barrels (Blitz) and improved rifling (RCA). People well QQ, but in the right hands these range increases are too much of an edge. With my RCA doctrine, my infantry can litterly kite other infantry...and deal pretty good damage.

PQ

[AmPM]

Sadly have to agree with removal of range bonuses.

Would also suggest a price increase across the board on handheld AT weapons, will allow armor to be more of a counter to elite infantry spam.

[bristiler]

I know its already been said but the "cool" new abilities are getting extremely annoying, I play allies axis brit pe american and wher. Im not great at any but what Im consistantly seeing is people mashing their"I win" buttons (the new unit abilities) every time they can. It usually renders units that are supposed to counter them useless. some of these abilities. the slow down effect from officers, the stun barage from officers, the panzer fear or whatever the hall it is that buttons your tanks, and so on and so forth. I know I didnt list many/any allied ones but thats only because I cant think of them at the moment. Possibly to stop the arty spam doctrines we could put a cap on 1-2 types purchaseable  per doctrine but giveing several choices. On top of that I believe the artys should be called from officers/Forward Observers called on the map which you would have to purchase the unit but not the artilary ability as you have already bought it in your doctrine.

[Detrian]

Balancing this stuff based on what a player can get in a single 1v1 or 2v2 in VCOH probably has some merit.

Do you mean the number of uses during a single 1v1 / 2v2 or, do you mean selection of choices?

Uses

[Detrian]

Or tier artillery shots something like this:

T2 artillery: Something like smoke rounds (3 uses)
T3 artillery: Somethng that actually does damage (2 uses)
T4 artillery: Strongest skill available (1 use)

[Aggamemnon]

The problem with that limit is, who would really take 2 mortar barrages when their enemy is getting a tiger and a tank buff?

(I'm not against changing them, but gimping it is overdoing it)

[AmPM]

Decrease the amount purchasable due to tier 1-3 purchases. Increase number of free + purchasable at T4.

So say you have Stafing 1 free, limit 2; bombing limit 1 as your t2 and t3 choice for AB.

You get Air Superiority.

It adds on 1+2

So now, 2 free Strafe, limit 4, 1 free bombing, limit 3. Recon run would be increased as well but its not the issue in the thread.

6 Strafe + 4 bombing could be nasty, but its a t2, t3, and t4 choice that costs SPs.

[Smokaz]

I thought that still was too much offmap if you aim for a overall reduction to be noticeable.

It could be put in system like this:

T2 Offmaps - 1 Use for free, 1 use max
T3 Offmaps - 0 Uses for free, 2 max uses
T4 Offmap amplifier: T2's now have 2 max uses, T3 gets 1 free use and 3 max uses

(More powerful offmaps get more uses here to offset that they are a higher tiered doctrine ability and overall you have to pay more to spam offmaps, but you still have to pay for them)

[salan]

I think we should also limit how many troops are effected by passive buffs.

m1 carbines, heat rounds, raid assault, those type..   actually if we used the following and changed it from uses, to units. Mmm..

Or tier artillery shots something like this:

T2 artillery: Something like smoke rounds (3 uses)
T3 artillery: Somethng that actually does damage (2 uses)
T4 artillery: Strongest skill available (1 use)

The problem here is that while you may not enjoy being hit by things you can see, no one is sitting here complaining about the passive buffs which on almost all occasions should reward a player with higher kill ratios then off boards tend to.  Nerfing the offmaps to oblivion will not create a balanced state of play, it will simply drive the majority of playerrs back into the passive buffs which A) effect all units of its type, B) allow the most return for the investment.

It's already completely apparent that without reinforcements the allied side of this game have a MUCH harder time dealing with the axis heavy tank spam you see every game.  their lack of reliable manpack AT, mostly in American factions armor and infantry, yet slightly across the british side, is highly noticeable from the last version we played.

In a  way EIRR has gone back to its roots with its equation of artillery vs specialized heavy troops.  give or take a few exceptions.

[AmPM]

But is an additional use or two on the same level as say, HEAT rounds? Or any of the other good T4s?

Thats what it comes down to, that or remove the Arty T4 to buff offmaps, and have it add a bunch of abilities to their artillery units.

[salan]

I'd say the tiger that can get 30-40+ kills a game is greater then the complete amount of any offmaps I have ever been able to use in a single game.

i tried CW artillery, US Infantry, PE scorched earth, WM Terror, all with as much arty as possible, and my kills from them was a hell of a lot less then a person could get reliably with 1 vehicle in most cases.  and I did get good with those offmaps.

[Draken]

Just played a game against earthshaker.

One shoot took 80% hp from my tiger, ofcourse as soon as I saw red smoke I started moving as far as I can on road and it hit me near church on neunen smoke was on that upper house in the town. The damage versus tanks should be toned down tbfh.

And salan yes you have 40-50 kills with tiger but you kill mostly meat, arty kills your most expensive units like paks, mortars your onmap arty, it's not about kills it's like backstab.

Destroy atg then rush with tanks, and get lots of kills. In long term destroying nebel with offmapp arty can be way more destructive for enemy then 20-30 inft kills on pershings.

[Smokaz]

Well the thing is that artillery being spotted for can take out critical units - sure a tiger can blow up a lot of rifles and airborne. But that tiger is helpless against a sticky and a 57mm with ap rounds. You can be helpless against mg42s working together with the wehrmacht mortar.

A howitzer offmap used correctly takes out a wehr mortar like 90% of the time. A mortar saturation barrage can mop up an entire line of support weapons. It can also blow up critical stuff to remove like howitzers or nebewerfers. In terms of force against force, its like a extra hand helping you out on top of your normal population of units. In fairness it could be said that stuff like heat rounds and german steel and NGV makes your units more powerful than their population cost normally assumes they are.

If I remove your mortar when theres a ami and wehr player going up against each other, the guy without a mortar is at a severe disadvantage. His guys still have to redploy to dodge the mortar, his mgs cant stay in the same place, his soldiers cant sit in green cover and mortar smoke can negate your entire small arms force in conjunction with flamers and grenades.

[EscforrealityTLS]

That Earth shaker off-map is completely gay, it is unavoidable. It don't like off-maps in the slightest to start with but damn that one is annoying. You can be a good distance from where its landing and for no reason boom your StuG explodes.

[anthony210]

I'd say the tiger that can get 30-40+ kills a game is greater then the complete amount of any offmaps I have ever been able to use in a single game.

i tried CW artillery, US Infantry, PE scorched earth, WM Terror, all with as much arty as possible, and my kills from them was a hell of a lot less then a person could get reliably with 1 vehicle in most cases.  and I did get good with those offmaps.

Comparing a Tiger to off maps is not a good comparison.  I am really not talking about axis vs allies balance here.  I am talking about stupid unit abilities and the large amount of off maps seen in a game.

[Unkn0wn]

Besides, you're actually paying a T3 and a large amount of resources for a Tiger/Pershing.

I am talking about stupid unit abilities and the large amount of off maps seen in a game.

Anyway, like I said in other threads, we're well aware of this and we will be taking the necessary steps.