[ALL] Remove Off-Map Artillery

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[Armfelt]

What if there would be that artillery doctrines would monopolize all the heavy artillery? And skip everything that is off-map (eg. rocket barrage, earth shaker barrage, FOO, Officer barrages etc.). To me they feel like a WarCraft-mage-calls-down-blizzard-insta-win-button.

On-map are more controllable, they got a maximum range, can be neutralized and got unlimited uses of cooldowns.

Off-map artillery I am not sure of is the V1, and "airplane-attacks". They are a fun implement. But as for now there is too much artillery.

Ok, with this said some of you will be afraid of people building "Doomfortresses". But well there is still calliopses, nebels, Walking stukas, hotchkiss stukas, priests, hummels, mortars, AVRES, Airbournes, commandos, smoke etc. etc.

So what do you else think?

PS. Understand that you developers have done much to implement officers, FOO and the like, but I think it would make a great mod even better without it. Ds.

[fallensoldier7]

I don't think off-map artillery has become much of a problem with the new drift system.  Imo off-map artillery has become really useless (except for those rare occasions when you drop it on someone and they dodge into the drifted arty shells).

[Smokaz]

Better? Definitely unsure of that. Different? Oh yeah.

Offmap-Artillery is needed to punish and easen the countering of a fairly large range of tactics. Wehrmacht buttbuddies sticking too close to each other, onmap arty pieces defended by ridicolous amounts of mines and supported by a triage. Blobs.

What I however would like to see is a increased time on the drop of artillery. They are currently easy mode counters to mortars and at guns for the most of the time. Alot of british players employs the vickers 30 cal to pin the axis infantry before they drop the artillery; this is good tactics cause its dependant on forcing the axis infantry into a impossible to escape situation instead of the independent factor of "offmap drop speed" that isnt affected by anything ingame ensuring their death.

Supression should be the key to nailing infantry. Engine damage, surprise or blocking should be the key to nailing tanks with artillery. It makes it tricker to escape instead of a panic button. It forces artillery strikes to be planned ahead and become situations of opportunity instead of a situation created by itself.

Triage camping, wehrmacht lockdown and stuff needs to be reduced in pop for a breach to be successfull, the way I experience it.

Gliders currently are fail because almost anything can kill the glider before the squads disembark, dropping airborne or fallschirms are extremely vulnerable while doing so. Tiebreaking or overcoming a defensive position can be costly and right there cost you the game because of the long term attrition. The onmaps cost population meaning that if the "camping" or defending party decides to push on it with a superior pop (from having the superior position) it usually means its dead.

[Demon767]

i dont think they are a problem any longer either, sure some need to be fixed at a later date but its all good imo, and Allies need offmaps

[Armfelt]

What I however would like to see is a increased time on the drop of artillery.

Well, that could probably work, but it feels to me that everyone got artillery and sometimes there is very much off-map art. available.

It feels sometimes like they are an evil erase button that either just miss the target or instagib support units, and there is nothing to prevent "the red cloud of death".

[Akranadas]

What if Off Map artillery required an On-map presence to work? Such as a field HQ, in which the player had to sacrifice a small portion of their population cap (2-3) in order to have the ability to call down off map barrages?

[Smokaz]

It would definitely expand the scope of the game if offmaps was able to be stopped from being deployed by destroying certain marker units.

[Demon767]

i like the field HQ idea

but it will need range on it so someone just doesnt build it at there spawn

[Armfelt]

Yeah, I like the idea. A HQ, Radar station, CW Truck etc would be needed to fire those Off- maps.

Then the Off-maps could get a suitable price and cooldown, if the "HQ" thing is implemented.

[DasNoob]

Off maps are fine.  They've been fine for 2.5 years.

[Demon767]

Ooooh coool a radar station for Axis, bunker with radar u kno the look.


ummm blitz precison strike? Oh wait i get u now, Precison strike will have the least cool down of all offmaps, that will probably fix the annoying drift it has if its cool down was every 2 minutes, other offmaps roughly 3-5 minutes

[Armfelt]

But every doctrine haven´t had off maps for 2.5 years.

And demon, thanks for being serious...

[Aggamemnon]

FOO is an ON-Map ability.

It relies on a unit already being ON MAP.

I don't think they should be removed, like I have said before, I wouldn't mind if you had specific spotting units for them, but otherwise (especially with drift) they are fine.

[Mysthalin]

I would agree on tieing all off-maps to spotter units(with hard-caps of 1/2), but giving the abilities a cooldown, instead of limited uses.

Absolute removal of off-maps should NOT happen, however. If you've ever seen 2 mortars, 3 paks,4 HMGs and 5 gren squads with shreks and LMGs all bundled up together in the courtyard of the town in abbeville, you know that the single thing you CAN do against that is an off-map or an on-map - no push of any magnitude will break through that. Off-maps punish blob and camping tactics, which is awesome and very much needed.

[IIPraeToriaNII]

Off maps are fine.  They've been fine for 2.5 years.

so were engineers/pios repairing, but what did you guys do with that....
artillery is way out of place in this game, and theres way too much of it...for such SMALL battles...
on map or off map, its an i win button(if not multiples of), and they usually protect the things next to their spawn....
so thats when spawn buff comes into play....instant(timed) buffed units to repel the weakened(from advancing) units advance that just crossed the whole map to deal with the on-mappers....
so its a pain in the ass to eliminate it, if they havent already retreated it(the other i win button)...
its pathetic in its current form, on and off map...
just give everyone free off maps and on map artillery units, and watch the complaints roll in....and pathetisize the gameplay...

this is pointless, cause someone will just shut it down with a pathetic narrow minded counter....
so have at it...mr horse blinders...

case in point....as a partial example, no more, no less...
how many off maps totally borking the beginning of game?, how many on map units?....at one point 4, plus one blown up.
and wtf is with the range of the priest?  am i supposed to shoot at the incoming shells? or just scurry around like its fucking SPACE INVADERS???
http://www.webfilehost.com/?mode=viewupload&id=1948624
tactical micro succumbs to the spawn camping projectile throwers with blobbing infantry, weeee....what lack of fun and pong style playing.
fucking ridiculous; rock, paper, scissors, METEORS...YOU WIN

If you've ever seen 2 mortars, 3 paks,4 HMGs and 5 gren squads with shreks and LMGs all bundled up together in the courtyard of the town in abbeville, you know that the single thing you CAN do against that is an off-map or an on-map - no push of any magnitude will break through that. Off-maps punish blob and camping tactics, which is awesome and very much needed.

thats where flanking and teamwork come into play, instead of just nuking them all, which supports and encourages blob and camping playstyles.
artillery should minimally SUPPLEMENT, not be a PRIMARY role in eliminating opposition in this style and size of gameplay.
but i guess whatever the devs are shooting for, is what really counts...

[Mysthalin]

Ok, how do you "flank" 4 HMGs and 3 paks, coupled with 2 mortars and a load of shrek/LMG grens.
How do you flank 5 bren tommies supported by 4 6 pdrs and 2 Piats?
How do you flank a recoil-less blob with just as many BAR airborne riflemen?

Artilery is the only thing keeping people from using huge-ass undefeatable blobs. You litelarly don't have a clue how bad it can get without artilery.

how many off maps totally borking the beginning of game?

0 - all off-maps have a begining cooldown timer.

"Tactical Micro" is spreading out a large force into small squads to envelop and defeat the enemy. Blob charge and getting nuked by artilery is frankly your own fault, not "tactical micro".

[IIPraeToriaNII]

Ok, how do you "flank" 4 HMGs and 3 paks, coupled with 2 mortars and a load of shrek/LMG grens.
How do you flank 5 bren tommies supported by 4 6 pdrs and 2 Piats?
How do you flank a recoil-less blob with just as many BAR airborne riflemen?

if your alluding to 2v2 maps, yes i agree, because they are TOO NARROW, 3v3 and 4v4 is a different story and what i usually play....
and ive already stated numerous times before that blobs ought to be dealt more penalties, as common sense can attest to...

how many off maps totally borking the beginning of game?

watch the game you just played in, and its self explanatory...

How do you flank a recoil-less blob with just as many BAR airborne riflemen?

an issue with fireup and the previously stated blobfests going on...id run them over with a tank like allies always do to axis, o wait, nothing to stop or threaten the allied tanks with instant engine damage or vehicle stoppage....unlike the stickies, button, t17 stun, etc...

How do you flank 5 bren tommies supported by 4 6 pdrs and 2 Piats?

mortars, mgs, and whatever else you have tactically...

Ok, how do you "flank" 4 HMGs and 3 paks, coupled with 2 mortars and a load of shrek/LMG grens.

how did they get that kind of foothold in the first place? improvise...but you will take casualties. and thats at least a 2v2 which the maps are too narrow on...
thus the "rectangles" 'they' like to make...

and like i said before....

artillery should MINIMALLY SUPPLEMENT, not be a PRIMARY role in eliminating opposition in this style and SIZE of gameplay.

thus AIDING in allowing you to retake that 'stronghold', not overwhelmingly blowing them to piss shit cause they beat you to the punch....

Artilery is the only thing keeping people from using huge-ass undefeatable blobs. You litelarly don't have a clue how bad it can get without artilery.

do you honestly think a garrisoned or 'in cover' mg shouldnt be able rip to shreds any infantry coming towards its arc of fire? the solution is - blob penalties need to go up....i successfully flank garrisoned mgs all the time with 2 squads... increase blob penalties and people will stop blobbing, they have no choice or are doomed to die and should change tactics...you dont need artillery for it even though it works sometimes.

[CrazyWR]

they got that kind of stronghold because its allied attack.  Or vice versa(replace units with allied counterparts) axis attack.  Offmaps serve to force units to spread out allowing you to achieve potential breakthroughs IF YOU COORDINATE properly.  However, I'm not a fan of the t4 arty choices that tend to allow more than 2 offmaps per person, because that becomes a bit of overkill....I wouldn't mind seeing those removed.

[IIPraeToriaNII]

they got that kind of stronghold because its allied attack.  Or vice versa(replace units with allied counterparts) axis attack. 

but as far as im aware allied and defensive advantages arent even in yet, i was just presumably alluding to ME and RE modes which i think accounts for most games but i might be wrong... even so strongholds are usually created multiple times during a single game... and however they are acquired i dont think artillery should play such a major role in dislodging the enemy (or creating a void to allow troops to move in with such impunitive ease after said artillery strikes) from such an attained strategic advantage they created or tactically maneuvered to gain such a position/advantage... its allowing people to get away with no micro, thus the constant complaining of blobbing and sloppy gameplay as well. and for all the good micro the person may have used to take that choke point, town, city, etc... and then fortify it, only for it to be blown to smithereens by off maps or on maps..... come on now... and it wont force the person to use better micro, just rely on his artillery more...

artillery insta-pwning a vet 3 squad?  just take 2 seconds to think about it...

[Baine]

Reduce offmaps in numbers slightly more and we are fine. But no offmaps is a no go.
As stated before there will be situations were only offmaps will help progressing in a battle.
You are talking about decadent offmap usage for every little thing, when people get outplayed.

Just because of those events doesn't mean that offmaps in general should be removed.