EIRR Balance

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[Mgallun74]

Wehr needs a harder hitting more shell throwing howitzer.  Nebel does ok, i did get my to get vet3 in 4 games, but it just doesnt have that pure blob erasing power...

[VERTIGGO]

Let me reiterate what acker was referring to and educate the less extensively read individuals among us.

The Panther (all versions) carried a 7,5cm Kw.K.42 L / 70 main gun. Its frontal armor was    8cm @ 35°, rendering it (in ackers opinion) "an effective 120mm" which is what threw me. I alluded to the Tiger II which actually carried an 8,8cm Kw.K.43 L / 71 but sported a range of 10-15cm @ 40° of frontal armor. I never referred to a gun of 12cm caliber.

What happens when you give a Pak40 treads, a turret, and an effective 120mm of frontal armor in return for relatively shorter range?

Excuse me, I meant the 7.5 Kwk 42.

In actuality the Panther version of the gun was more effective than the same caliber PaK 40 even firing the same shells. I would guess this is due to length enabling it to achieve higher muzzle velocity.

The maximum penetration of a Panther was 194mm at 100m distance, while the PaK 40 at 100m only penetrated up to 143mm with the same shell.

Also, due to the increased velocity, the Panther could penetrate 108mm (any medium tank) at 2000m, while the PaK 40 was ineffective at that range and only penetrated 77mm at 1500m

So the Panther kanone was more effective than the AT weapons of the same caliber.

(Not necessarily balance, lol, but interesting)

[acker]

Let me reiterate what acker was referring to and educate the less extensively read individuals among us.

The Panther (all versions) carried a 7,5cm Kw.K.42 L / 70 main gun. Its frontal armor was    8cm @ 35°, rendering it (in ackers opinion) "an effective 120mm" which is what threw me. I alluded to the Tiger II which actually carried an 8,8cm Kw.K.43 L / 71 but sported a range of 10-15cm @ 40° of frontal armor. I never referred to a gun of 12cm caliber.

What happens when you give a Pak40 treads, a turret, and an effective 120mm of frontal armor in return for relatively shorter range?

Excuse me, I meant the 7.5 Kwk 42.

In actuality the Panther version of the gun was more effective than the same caliber PaK 40 even firing the same shells. I would guess this is due to length enabling it to achieve higher muzzle velocity.

The maximum penetration of a Panther was 194mm at 100m distance, while the PaK 40 at 100m only penetrated up to 143mm with the same shell.

Also, due to the increased velocity, the Panther could penetrate 108mm (any medium tank) at 2000m, while the PaK 40 was ineffective at that range and only penetrated 77mm at 1500m

So the Panther kanone was more effective than the AT weapons of the same caliber.

(Not necessarily balance, lol, but interesting)

i think americans need a firefly varient

As long as I get a PaK40;) This path is endless...

I think we agree, then. We already have something better than a Pak40, so there isn't anything stopping a Firefly variant. Though I do think that the M36 is currently being modeled...so no worries.



IRL, your data is...misleading. Your maximum penetration figures for the Kwk42 only applies to APCR, which was virtually nonexistent by 1944 due to tungsten shortages (as in, literally no tungsten). The penetration figures would be, at 100/500/1500/2000 meters...

138     124     111     99     89

mm of armor penetration for APCBC shells. Which is, admittedly, still around 30mm higher at each range than the Pak40's equivalent.

[Draken]

Cleaned.

[Demon767]

Germans dont need better AT< they have all they need. as for Americans its a different story

[Nimitz]

Germans dont need better AT< they have all they need. as for Americans its a different story

Well microed m8s, t17s and stags are extremely hard to stop. Shrecks have the annoying tendency to hit the ground in front of them instead of the vehicle 5m away.

[von_Luchs]

Precision strike is a waste (in its currnt state), probably best to get rid of it altogether and think of something else.

Your wrong. 

No, your wrong.

[Mysthalin]

Honestly, precision strike is extremely potent.
I still haven't seen one proper argument as to why it's "useless".
The drift only helps you if the enemy support weapon decides to move.

[panzerman]

but it ain't precise and fails most of the time unlike most allied off maps. i mean it is meant to blow the target away.

and before us till had a chance to bail as long as u saw the smoke going down.

[Tymathee]

I seem to lose a lot of LT's to precision strikes. I see it used more on blobs of infantry than on say a building or a support weapon.

IMO, the infantry off map is pretty much useless now because of the drift, it was already hard to get a shot down because of the spread but now with a larger spread + not being able to get it right where you want, i rarely hit anything with it.

[Smokaz]

Unless your LT is in a wheelchair, theres no way in hell a player can get him with a precision strike intenionally

[Tymathee]

Unless your LT is in a wheelchair, theres no way in hell a player can get him with a precision strike intenionally

it isn't intentional but just trying to get something in the group. I've lost 2 or 3 lt's to PS's just from the stupid thing trailing behind when you try and turn.

[Mysthalin]

It's common knowledge using the follow ability on officers is a good way to lose said officer.

but it ain't precise and fails most of the time unlike most allied off maps

1. When's the last time have you been honestly hurt by a 105 off-map? It fails to hit even 88s.
2. Mortar Saturation. T3. 10 second drop time. Less mortar shells in it than there are rockets in a firestorm. Way more spread out than said firestorm. No suppression, poor splash damage.
3. Earth Shaker. T3. Absolutely hit or miss, no precision in it whatsoever.

Here you go, 2 allied offmaps that fail most of the time, and 1 offmap that's has the same chance of killing the user as it has killing the target.

and before us till had a chance to bail as long as u saw the smoke going down.

And now, instead of being able to truelly dodge it like we could before, we still can be hit by the shot drifting to where we're dodging. It doesn't drift enough to do no damage to a support weapon crew if it stays in one place. If anything, drift only buffed it to have a 1 in 8 chance to fail-safe and kill the target while it's moving.

And using precision strike on brens buttoning your vet 3 P4 is a god-send.

[von_Luchs]

And using precision strike on brens buttoning your vet 3 P4 is a god-send.

Thats assuming it hits anywhere close to them, and even then it probably wont kill entire squad, but only break button.  No doubt another squad will reapply the button, or the firefly in the fog will finnish it.

Its my impression that precision strike should only be really effective against emplaced support weapons; ATGs, MGs, Mortars etc. but at the moment thats a 40-60 proposition at best.

[BigDick]

I seem to lose a lot of LT's to precision strikes. I see it used more on blobs of infantry than on say a building or a support weapon.

IMO, the infantry off map is pretty much useless now because of the drift, it was already hard to get a shot down because of the spread but now with a larger spread + not being able to get it right where you want, i rarely hit anything with it.

you say the inf offmap with its many shells over an area is useless but the precision strike with only one shell and drift is good? WTF

[Mysthalin]

The inf off-map shells don't drift over an area - they all get thrown into one place, somewhere 10km away from where it was aimed at.
Seriously bigdick, you're an idiot if you claim that 5 times more drift on the infantry offmap doesn't make it worse than the preci strike.

[Draken]

Well even if precision strike has drift it hits 95% of the time were I aimed, but then inft offmap fails in 80-90% cases.

I suggest using arguments covered by facts, not becasue "I think so Tim".

[Baine]

We already told Eirmod some time ago, that the drift shouldn't be for the whole barrage but rather for every single strike, so that the shots will come down in wider spread.

[Eyeseeyou]

- Strafe should not arrive before the plane and smoke arrives.

- Sapper piats should have a higher cost or less accuracy and range. The accuracy and range is just too good for that price, even without vet compared to schrecks and the fact that they can fire over hedges.

- Cromwell command tank (and maybe normal cromwells too) should not use flank speed to run over infantry instead of running away from combat, infantry close to the tank will be crushed easily, the ability should be removed. In normal coh this is quite annoying but in this mod it's game breaking, very close to a bug.

- M7 Priest should have their arty range reduced, the range is just ridiculous compared to other artillery. I've never seen a m7 priest move out of the retreat range and i have seen many m7 priests on many maps.

- T17 and hellcat should be nerfed when using armor company, the hellcat should not have more health the whole point with it is to be fast and deal a lot of damage supported and maybe ambush but not be able to take so much damage. They are not really game breaking just very annoying

You should have credz for nerfing kangaroo though, you've done what relic haven't done in 6 months with their heads stuck up their asses.

[EliteGren]

I agree with the strafe.

WHy do you want piats to have less RANGE or even accuracy? Without a vet 2 Lieutenant they dont ever hit moving vehicles. Ever.

Tank crush is part of the game. Personally I dont like it and would just want to have it removed entirely from the game.

Im not too sure about the priest, if someone gets supercharged rounds it should fire over a long distance shoudnt it ?

T17 and hellcat should be nerfed when using armor company

Nerf armor when using armor company? This sentence makes as much sense as me looking outside and seeing pigs fly across the street.