PE in need of an INfantry Support Tank

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[tankspirit668]

Common Sense on current P4 IST:

I`ll try to add some things up:

• it seems to be common sense, that the PIV IST can`t do things on it`s own even though it is a very special Anti INfantry Tank - help of even more Anti Infantry Units is needed. IHTs and G43 PzGrens were mentioned:

Whether or not it has the same range as a flamer or not is irrelevant, if anything, it helps balance that the anti-infantry tank of both Brits, PE and Amis has similar range. The P4 won't stand up to anti tank weapons, don't expect it to. And it is exactly what it says it is, an IST, use it with infantry, G43 slow on those rifles, or sue assault grens so they will die if they try to get that sticky off. It's not going to win any battles by itself.

• The P4 IST doesn`t seem to be used very much, and when it`s used it doesn`t seem to perform good. Performance seems to be sub Croc Sherman and it`s stated it performs more like more like light vehicles that cost less and take less pop:

does anyone run in fear when they see an IST? no. usually people go, oh.. why'd he put that in his company? i rarely see these things be useful, but sometimes i do see them used to good effect. maybe the cool down for lock down could be decreased, i mean the marder is pretty instant, but that could make it a little bit more useful maybe?

if rr's were range 45, people would be outraged. handheld at should NEVER out range tanks, thats stupid. guess which tank gets out ranged by hand held at? what tank can be KITED by rr's?....the p4-IST.
.....
as for comparing an IST to a croc...well if it was a competition of effectiveness the IST is gonna lose, by a really long way.

Crocs often elicit an "oh shit" reaction. IST's get an...guys, gimi a sec im gonna role this guy reaction.

Its killing power and speed are both lower than crocs, its a phailcroc.
....
 Go for it, get some replays of ownage IST's. if you can.  Manage this and ill have to re-evaluate my opinion of your posting.

The 4 you would most closely compare would be:
Ami- Croc
PE - P4
Wher - ostwind/puma?
Brits - churchill 4/ stuart

Although the PE p4 should have a range change from 30 to 35. it has less range than  everything in the game.

Problems with current P4 IST

As it seems there are two problems:

1 .) The current PIV underperforms in its role It seems to be common sense, that the current P4 IST is a suicide unit

2.) PE has no Infantry support tank with a good range , that is not suicide unit

Steps that should be taken to fix that:

1.) Lowering the Pricing and the pop of the current PIV IST, because it`s endants have a better range and are not considered suicide units or are light vehicles, which seem to be more cost efficient.

......
Now, what I'd go for is maybe lower pop, say 8 or 9 because it is a support tank and not a main battle tank, but all MBT's are 12 pop or higher.

Now, the other axis tank i most compare it to, which is the stuh/g, is only 8 pop 300 mp and 140 fu, (380 180 stuh) is only 8 pop, where as the is is 350 mp and 205 fu and 10 pop. maybe a lower to 9 pop would hep with a man power and fuel lower to i say 320 and 190 would make it much more useful and be able to fit into more build than it is now. Even the croc got lowered to 10.

2.) And Create a new variant of the PIV IST, like it was done with the AT HT before. It should have a longer weapon range. There are concerns that if you keep the stats like its firing rate aso and lockdown ability it will be overpowered, which i see the same way, therefore i think a a simple range increase will create an overpowered unit. Making a complete new Variant a new unit will help, that the balancing can be done, firing rate can be adjusted, lockdown ability can be removed, pricing and pop can be adjusted accordingly performance.   Nobody wants a super unit, that will rape infantry and ATGs and seconds. But it should be common sense, that PE deserves a support tank, that is not considered a suicide unit.

Hmm, 35-40 range with lockdown..... I don't like it.

What if we just increased the Range of the IST to the same as the P4

Sounds like the thoughts of a Madman!

ORIGNAL POST is below

Intention

Give the PE a viable infantry support tank. PE has no Vehicle filling that role. Panzer IV IS has problems dealing with AT Guns and with Infantry , beacuse of it short Range, which is 30 ( Jagdtiger has 45 as a comparision ).

Possible Balancing Actions

1 ) Implementing new Unit:
Implemant a complete new vehicle for PE filling the role of a real Infantry Support Tank, like a Panzer IV Brummbaer, e.g. .

Pro: More variety i unit choice

Con: More work needed - bigger difference from VCOH.

2 ) Change the Stats of a Unit, that is already there:
 
PE has already implemented Support Tank , the Panzer IV IST. I`d propose a change of the unit itself or create a variation of it, like it was  done with the AT Halftrack, because the PAnzer IV IST is rendered almost useless in the EIR Enivronment, beacause of its low Firing Range. I`d propose to increase the Range of is gun to 45 at the same tme the lockdown ability should be  removed.

Pro: Less work needed

Con: Another unit, which is maybe different from VCOH, but still with the old look.

[Smokaz]

Reset PE inf back to regular infantry armor and give them grenadier health again, or PE will forever suck ass since their regular infantry is so unreliable.

[tankspirit668]

Reset PE inf back to regular infantry armor and give them grenadier health again, or PE will forever suck ass since their regular infantry is so unreliable.

The glass Infantry in an environment, where durability an longevity (Vet in EIRR) matter..... shure PE Infrantry sucks here. Rangers, ABs and Tommies rock the house.

I Think you are right, but that`s another topic. I`d recommend to clear Smokaz answer, because its Offtopic, and it doesn`t change something abot the fact , that PE is in need of a viable Infantry Support Tank.

[Smokaz]

I don't think the IST is so bad as you point it out, and at vet 3 it has +10 range combined. It also handles light vehicles reasonably well and is 2 pop lower than the p4. In what situations do you feel that it underperforms? A lot of units are stronger at short range compared to their long range performance, its not something only the IST suffers from.

Both Luftwaffe and Tank hunters buff the IST.. what doctrine are you playing with the IST?

If I'd change it, I'd look on how it performs against airborne and piats. I think its underpowered against these two forms of handheld at. It should do better against these two units than it currently do.

For me it blows away the crew of a 57mm in two hits, I dont know how much easier it should be for the IST to kill it.

[salan]

we should make the PV IS usable.  IMO giving it normal tank range would go along ways into this.

[tankspirit666]

I don't think the IST is so bad as you point it out, and at vet 3 it has +10 range combined. It also handles light vehicles reasonably well and is 2 pop lower than the p4. In what situations do you feel that it underperforms? A lot of units are stronger at short range compared to their long range performance, its not something only the IST suffers from.

Both Luftwaffe and Tank hunters buff the IST.. what doctrine are you playing with the IST?

If I'd change it, I'd look on how it performs against airborne and piats. I think its underpowered against these two forms of handheld at. It should do better against these two units than it currently do.

For me it blows away the crew of a 57mm in two hits, I dont know how much easier it should be for the IST to kill it.

I think every faction deserves a unit that can fill a role and that without veterency buffs or special doctrine choices.

I think it`s an anti infantry weapon, but it underperforms in it`s role, but not solely against anti tank infantry, like ABs or Piats, but also against Riflemen with Stickies.

Stickies have a a max Range (without vet) of 17 !. The Panzer IV gun range is 30 ( wihtout vet), Is this the way an anti infantry tank sould perform ?.

The weakness does not lie in its hitting power, It can shoot ATG Crews , no doubt about that. But the short range is really an issue, that renders it too unflexible in an environment , where it eats 10 pop constantly.

I played every PE doctrines some time ago and was never happy about the performance of Panzer IV ISTs and didn`t have vetted PIV s.  

[Tymathee]

Wow, the ist rapes at guns, i don't know what you're talking about. All it takes is two hits from an ist from the front to take out an at gun and if you get it on the rear, just one shot and it's done. You just can't charge into the at gun, it's a bit slow but they are really really good at taking out support weapons and infantry, they even do a fair job at taking on light vehicles and can knock out m10's and m18's if you pop 'em in the rear armor, a lot of people try to use the ist like it's a normal tank, it's not, it's like a stuh with shorter range and lower frontal armor. I used to have a vet 3 ist and i once had two vet 2 ist's in my company, you just have to learn not just how to use them but when to bring them in as well.

Actually, I think the best way to use the ist is the same way you use the Sherman Croc, it excels at takin out infantry in buildings, the only differene is that the croc can rape inf in green cover while the ist not so much but they share the same fear factor for infantry, maybe the ist a little more because it can take out 2-5 infantry in one good shot, when it gets to vet 2 it's just an infantry meat grinder.

[Mysthalin]

P4 IST + riflemen at max range = 1 rifleman guy retreating after one shot from the IST.

[tankspirit666]

P4 IST + riflemen at max range = 1 rifleman guy retreating after one shot from the IST.

Panzer IV 10 pop not at max range . Rifleman throws sticky. It`s the same with PE Infantry vs a Sherman - they one shot PE Infantry squads. So I don`t see a point here. Panzer IV IST still underperforms for its price and its pop.

[Mysthalin]

I would disagree - it has become quite a good infantry support tank in the recent patches. Use it in conjunction with a G43 and some panzerhshreks - you can generally overcome anything.

Imagine that it's a slower, more heavily armored staghound or T17, and use it as such.

[Two]

p4 ist owns and always has just use it properly

[Tymathee]

I would disagree - it has become quite a good infantry support tank in the recent patches. Use it in conjunction with a G43 and some panzerhshreks - you can generally overcome anything.

Imagine that it's a slower, more heavily armored staghound or T17, and use it as such.

Yea, if you use it in conjuction with slow, omg. Well basically, slow inf, bring up ist, infantry retreats cuz they see their doom coming.

Most rifles dont have stickies anyway tbh. A lot of players just skip on 'em. One thing i love doing is say my teammate who is wehr or using a iht suppressed  a lot of inf, run the ist in the middle of the blob and lock down, boom boom boom boom, i've racked up 20 kills like that before, its just nasty.

Like i said, it's just like the croc, its basically a suicide tank, and the ist is cheaper than the croc in man power and fuel but more expensive in its upgrades, the difference is that PE are more fuel dependent than the US. I dont use an ist anymore tbh, i threw all the fuel i'd normally use for two ist's into my hummel but before i got the hummel, i'd run two ist's in my company and sometimes even start with one.

[tankspirit668]

I would disagree - it has become quite a good infantry support tank in the recent patches. Use it in conjunction with a G43 and some panzerhshreks - you can generally overcome anything.

Imagine that it's a slower, more heavily armored staghound or T17, and use it as such.

T17 has less pop, costs less, its main gun has more range ( 25% more ) , its faster, has a very good MG  and it`s more agile. The point is, nobody will tell things like use its with .... because it can stand on its own. Sherman can mainly stand on its own against stuff, Cromwell can deal damage and escape ( because of weapon range and speed ), but Panzer IV can`t. PE Infantry is like I stated above anoher topic. I can`t find a recent VCOH Patch , where the Panzer IV IST was buffed from its stats. Please mention the patch you are refering to.

 

[tankspirit668]

p4 ist owns and always has just use it properly

I consider this Off Topic. Please give more information regarding usage.

[Tymathee]

See this is where you're messing up tankspriti, you're comparing the IST to medium battle tanks, which it is not, it is used like the croc. Also the t-17 has no machine gun, thats the stag hound. You use the ist when you either have good at on the field or its just infantry, just like you would the croc. Also the ist is cheaper than the p4 for wehr and the sherman and is just about the same as the cromwell and it does have godo speed, it's about the same as speed asthe sherman (5.2 sherm, 5 for ist) the cromwell is also 5 speed so the only thing that makes the crom "faster" is its flank speed. Either learn to use it or just dont but the ist IS the pe's infantry supprot tank cuz well, ist means, ....infantry support tank lol

[3rdCondor]

Should the PE be able to buy a regular PIV? They're decent against infantry.

[tankspirit668]

See this is where you're messing up tankspriti, you're comparing the IST to medium battle tanks, which it is not, it is used like the croc. Also the t-17 has no machine gun, thats the stag hound. You use the ist when you either have good at on the field or its just infantry, just like you would the croc. Also the ist is cheaper than the p4 for wehr and the sherman and is just about the same as the cromwell and it does have godo speed, it's about the same as speed asthe sherman (5.2 sherm, 5 for ist) the cromwell is also 5 speed so the only thing that makes the crom "faster" is its flank speed. Either learn to use it or just dont but the ist IS the pe's infantry supprot tank cuz well, ist means, ....infantry support tank lol

A NOT upgunned Sherman is like the Cromwell not a Battle Tank, it`s an Infantry Support Tank. But you say it - it`s better than a Panzer 4 IST against tanks also. And you are right about the T17 . So I take my statement about the MG back. So a Panzer IV IST has to fill exactly the same role like a Sherman or a Cromwell. SO i refuse to believe I`m messing up.

[tankspirit668]

Should the PE be able to buy a regular PIV? They're decent against infantry.

No, I don`t think so. The PIV IST needs a range buff and maybe some nerf regarding lockdown or damage output ( that depends if its OP then ). PE doesnt need an all purpose tank like the WEhrmacht Panzer IV, but an equivalent to a not upgunned Sherman.

[tankspirit668]

Yea, if you use it in conjuction with slow, omg. Well basically, slow inf, bring up ist, infantry retreats cuz they see their doom coming.

Most rifles dont have stickies anyway tbh. A lot of players just skip on 'em. One thing i love doing is say my teammate who is wehr or using a iht suppressed  a lot of inf, run the ist in the middle of the blob and lock down, boom boom boom boom, i've racked up 20 kills like that before, its just nasty.

Like i said, it's just like the croc, its basically a suicide tank, and the ist is cheaper than the croc in man power and fuel but more expensive in its upgrades, the difference is that PE are more fuel dependent than the US. I dont use an ist anymore tbh, i threw all the fuel i'd normally use for two ist's into my hummel but before i got the hummel, i'd run two ist's in my company and sometimes even start with one.

Ther is someone again using the PAnzer tIV in conunction with other weopans. I consider this ooftopic again. You are referncing most riflemen dont`t have stickies ( range 17  without vet ), I`d consider this is not a reason why the range of the Panzer IV does not need a buff. COH STATS is down currently, but i read on google the flame range of the crocodile sherman is 35 ! . So Panzer IV IST range with 30 is okay for an Infantry support tank? I think ... NO !

Every faction deserves an Infantry Support Tank which you don`t have to suicide if you use it. Let there be vetted Stickies Riflemen ( throwing ange 25 ? - lol 5 less than ISTs gun) or an ATG. It`s not vialble in EIRR, due to Vet matters, longevity matters and you have 1 repair use max. If you want suicide tank you can pick a Croc Sherman ( can`t look at its flame thrower range atm :-(  ), if you want a durable anti infantry tank pick a not upgunned Sherman. THE POINT IS YOU DONT HAVE THIS CHOICE AS A PE PLAYER.

One question: for every faction I can think of two Infantry Support Tanks in a company is  a very low number ( like you stated you were using 2 ). With you new company build you are using zero Panzer IV ISTs - why that, if they perform one pair with a Sherman or a Cromwell against Infantry or even better ?

[Mysthalin]

The equivilent of a non-upgunned sherman is the WM P4. The WM P4 is stronger, of course, but it's priced accordingly as well.
You are comparing apples and bananas - they're both fruits, but they don't exactly taste the same do they? Same way a sherman and a P4 IST are both tanks, but the sherman is a Main Battle Tank that is a generalist, meaning it can do anything, but not a very good job at it, whereas the IST is an anti-infantry tank with also SUPERB capabilities against light vehicles.

I was reffering to EiR patches, not vCoH patches, tank - mainly changes in it's price and popcap.

I think this is more of an issue of someone not knowing how to use a unit, and rather than listening to the proposed suggestions on how to use it better, just shouting "buff now, cuz I said so".

Actually, crocodile range is 25, last time I checked the RGDs. Croca-church is 35.

Sticky range = 17. P4 IST range = 30.
Rifle speed = 3, P4 speed = 5.
So, what's the chance of stickies kiting a P4 IST?