PE in need of an INfantry Support Tank

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[tankspirit668]

The equivilent of a non-upgunned sherman is the WM P4. The WM P4 is stronger, of course, but it's priced accordingly as well.
You are comparing apples and bananas - they're both fruits, but they don't exactly taste the same do they? Same way a sherman and a P4 IST are both tanks, but the sherman is a Main Battle Tank that is a generalist, meaning it can do anything, but not a very good job at it, whereas the IST is an anti-infantry tank with also SUPERB capabilities against light vehicles.

I was reffering to EiR patches, not vCoH patches, tank - mainly changes in it's price and popcap.

I think this is more of an issue of someone not knowing how to use a unit, and rather than listening to the proposed suggestions on how to use it better, just shouting "buff now, cuz I said so".

Actually, crocodile range is 25, last time I checked the RGDs. Croca-church is 35.

Sticky range = 17. P4 IST range = 30.
Rifle speed = 3, P4 speed = 5.
So, what's the chance of stickies kiting a P4 IST?

The equivalent regarding anti infantry capabilities of US regarding Wehr PIV is the not upgunned Sherman.
Equivalent regarding AT Capabilites is the upgunned Sherman ( it`s slightly better though in this manner).

But that discussin is off topic. I want an INfantry Support Tank for PE, that can be used without driving into AT Guns or Stickies. So I don`t think I`m comparing pineapples with apples. A Tank with a range of 30 can not have  superb qualities against lighter and faster vehicles, that is my opinion.

The math with the sticky range is nice. But then a PIV still needs to much baby sitting and micro to stay always at max distance. Lets do the math with vet 2 Stickies Rifleman again and you will need ubermicro to keep the range at max because sticky range is then what ( 25 ?? havent looked it up, yet - cohstats down ).  

It was stated that a croc church is a suicide tank ( weapon range 25 ). It´s also stated that croc churchill flame range is 35 ! which is 5 more than The Weopan Range of Panzer IV IST.

Regarding the Pricing:

Sherman :
395 MP
240 Fuel
50 Mun MG
60 Mun Upgun´
50 Mun Repair
12 Pop

Panzer IV IST:
350 MP
205 Fuel
50 Mun MG
60 Mun Skirts
40 Mun Repair
10 Pop

So we compare two Infantry Support Tanks here and the Sherman  performs clearly better than the Panzer IV for slightly more costs and two more pop. Nothing out of the ordinary here.


So is it alll right that the main infantry support tank of PE has a main weapon that range is about the same or less than flamers? I don`t think so.

[Lolgasm]

Whether or not it has the same range as a flamer or not is irrelevant, if anything, it helps balance that the anti-infantry tank of both Brits, PE and Amis has similar range. The P4 won't stand up to anti tank weapons, don't expect it to. And it is exactly what it says it is, an IST, use it with infantry, G43 slow on those rifles, or sue assault grens so they will die if they try to get that sticky off. It's not going to win any battles by itself.

[tankspirit668]

Whether or not it has the same range as a flamer or not is irrelevant, if anything, it helps balance that the anti-infantry tank of both Brits, PE and Amis has similar range. The P4 won't stand up to anti tank weapons, don't expect it to. And it is exactly what it says it is, an IST, use it with infantry, G43 slow on those rifles, or sue assault grens so they will die if they try to get that sticky off. It's not going to win any battles by itself.

Yes and that`s good,  but the fact is it`s way too expensive, it`s the only Support Tank PE has and it`s weopan range is way to short. If you want it to do some damage you have to get close to the enemy, which means it`s more likely to take damage, which sux if you can repair it only one time. I mean a flamer is better against infantry right ? And a flamer has almost, or even a better range and that`s somehow stupid. Weapon range matters Lolgasm.

[Tymathee]

Dud,e just dont use it, PE have so many good anti infantry weapons that you dont have to use the IST, either learn how to play with it or don't use it seriously. Several people who are GOOD with IST's have told you how to use it, yet you keep saying that the IST is useless, maybe it's the way you'r using it? Like myst said, its use is in the name "Infantry Support Tank" do you realize how silly you sound saying "the PE need an infantry support tank because the infantry support tank can't solo against infantry" uh...you know what infantry suppor tank means right? It means it support INFANTRY! If you're trying to use the ISt alone and you're getting it raped, it's because you're using it wrong, duh.

Also, the sherman doesn't out perform the IST in killing infanry.. The P4 is has a higher rate of fire, higher aoe, does and performs masterfully better at killing infantry in a building, so like I said, you're obviously using it wrong. It doesn't need a buff, you need to either l2p with it, or just dont use it. The PE aren't about tanks, they're about half tracks, the IST and the Jagd are the only tanks for PE. Now what would be nice is if there were doc abilities which buffed the IST but i dont think you really get there until you have tank busters but anyway. This is stupid, you're stubborn and won't listen to anyone elses opinion cuz you think you're right, so i'm done with you on this subject, i doubt you find anyone else who agrees with you.

[tankspirit668]

Dud,e just dont use it, PE have so many good anti infantry weapons that you dont have to use the IST, either learn how to play with it or don't use it seriously. Several people who are GOOD with IST's have told you how to use it, yet you keep saying that the IST is useless, maybe it's the way you'r using it? Like myst said, its use is in the name "Infantry Support Tank" do you realize how silly you sound saying "the PE need an infantry support tank because the infantry support tank can't solo against infantry" uh...you know what infantry suppor tank means right? It means it support INFANTRY! If you're trying to use the ISt alone and you're getting it raped, it's because you're using it wrong, duh.

Also, the sherman doesn't out perform the IST in killing infanry.. The P4 is has a higher rate of fire, higher aoe, does and performs masterfully better at killing infantry in a building, so like I said, you're obviously using it wrong. It doesn't need a buff, you need to either l2p with it, or just dont use it. The PE aren't about tanks, they're about half tracks, the IST and the Jagd are the only tanks for PE. Now what would be nice is if there were doc abilities which buffed the IST but i dont think you really get there until you have tank busters but anyway. This is stupid, you're stubborn and won't listen to anyone elses opinion cuz you think you're right, so i'm done with you on this subject, i doubt you find anyone else who agrees with you.

The Sherman outperfroms the Panzer IV in general. Considering it can be used even against tanks ( with upgun for 60 Mun even quite good ) and it has a main gun that has a good range.  

PE is maybe not about tanks, but they should have a viable IST, the current Panzer IV IST doesn`t cut it. Leaderboard Panzer IV has 30 xp that says enough about the siutuation of the Panzer IV IST. It doesn`t matter if the IST gets buffs with doctrines or with vet also, because it should be common sense that support tanks should be usable even without buffs , so lets not discuss buffs here.

Tymathee, I don`t need people aggreeing with me on the issue, that`s what discussions are for. And I`m not getting personal.

[tankspirit668]

Personal Summary

I try to make some purposals based on the recent discussion, that there seem to be some people who like the Panzer IV IST as it is:

Please Create a new Variant of the Panzer IV IST for all PE Factions without lockdown ability. The variant should have a weapon range like the STUH ( 45 ).  Maybe a decrease in firing rate is also needed, same with probably a pop increase. I personally don`t see a need for a price increase, comparing it to the pricing of a Sherman.

[Two]

P4 IST is for taking out infantry once the at is gone or being dealt with, it also holds the line easily and can chase down lone units trying to backcap.

Increasing the range of it would be silly.

[tankspirit668]

P4 IST is for taking out infantry once the at is gone or being dealt with, it also holds the line easily and can chase down lone units trying to backcap.

Increasing the range of it would be silly.

Why is it silly for a main infantry support tank to have a maingun with range bigger than a flamer ? There should be at least an option for the PE to have a tank with a better  range. Don`t you agree ? May it be with a lower firing rate or whatever , but there should be an option to have a decent tank that can fire some shots from the distance.  

I doubt generally that tanks holding defense lines - especially tanks with a range as low as the IST. And mentioning possible uses like chasing lonely units.... that`s a possible usage , yes, but it should not be the common usage for infantry support tanks.

Is there anything which contradicts my proposal of a new P IV IST Variant with propable lower rate of fire but higher range ? I mean ... LEaderboard P IV IST is 30 xp , which speaks for itself i think.

[Two]

Fine ill go make a 1k xp p4.

[tankspirit668]

Fine ill go make a 1k xp p4.

I`ll consider that as off topic

Leaderboard so far - Leading Support Tanks :

Wehr P IV is 290 XP

PE P IV is 30 XP

Sherman is 263 XP

Cromwell 134 XP

[Tymathee]

Fine ill go make a 1k xp p4.

I`ll consider that as off topic

Leaderboard so far - Leading Support Tanks :

Wehr P IV is 290 XP

PE P IV is 30 XP

Sherman is 263 XP

Cromwell 134 XP

P4 IST = Croc, how many crocs do you see on the leaderboard??

[Two]

sherman, wehr p4 and cromwell are not support tanks, they are main tanks

[Tymathee]

sherman, wehr p4 and cromwell are not support tanks, they are main tanks

he doesn't seem to get it, he keeps comparing them cuz it has the word "tank" in it I think. If you like, I can do the same as two and get an epicful high xp ist just to prove to you how good they are, heck, lets play a game later since i have to leave in a bit and i'll show you how good they are and then you'll be screaming "OP!" cuz thats what used to happen to me when I used 'em a lot.

[tankspirit668]

P4 IST = Croc, how many crocs do you see on the leaderboard??

Croc in Leaderboard is 28 XP which is about the same as the P IV IST. But that`s what i`m talking about, there should be another taste of Support Tank for PE  besides this low range kamikaze thing. I`d like to have this choice is anything wrong with having an option to go for an anti infantry tank , that will survive some more battles ?

I don`t want a overpoweered super tank , no lockdown for the new P4 IST Variant but at least  a firing range that is about the same as the STUH or the Jagdpanther.

[Ununoctium]

The 4 you would most closely compare would be:
Ami- Croc
PE - P4
Wher - ostwind/puma?
Brits - churchill 4/ stuart

Although the PE p4 should have a range change from 30 to 35. it has less range than  everything in the game.

[tankspirit668]

sherman, wehr p4 and cromwell are not support tanks, they are main tanks

Yes okay so they are main tanks. So let them be better against Tanks, let tem be a little bit worse against infantry. Is that a reason that contradicts a new PIV IST Variant with more firing range , higher reload time, etc ?

[tankspirit668]

The 4 you would most closely compare would be:
Ami- Croc
PE - P4
Wher - ostwind/puma?
Brits - churchill 4/ stuart

Although the PE p4 should have a range change from 30 to 35. it has less range than  everything in the game.

You can see it that way. I really don`t like to use not upgunned Shermans  or Wehr P IV and Cromwells against tanks. That`s why I consider them as Infantry Support Tanks.

Ostwind about the same costs as P IV IST, but less Fuel : PE is highly fuel dependant . Ostwind has more range than P IV IST.
Puma : less Pop , less costs, more Range, more speed , less armor . but overall more viable : several Pumas have more than 40 xp in Leaderboard.
Churchill 4: way more health, gun range of 40. Considering it has not to deal with that load of handheld AT like the Axis Tanks , it can better cope with the lower range, and has a heavy crush and can therefore flank better.


If we want to say PIV ISTs does not need another variant, because they perectly fit their role as an Infantry Support Tank, I`d suggest heavily a range Increase to 35 or to even 40, if we compare it to the pendants mentioned by Ununoctium

I`m still a big fan of a complete new variant of the PIV IST. Considering the Lockdown Ability could get OP with the higher range.

[Tymathee]

P4 IST = Croc, how many crocs do you see on the leaderboard??

Croc in Leaderboard is 28 XP which is about the same as the P IV IST. But that`s what i`m talking about, there should be another taste of Support Tank for PE  besides this low range kamikaze thing. I`d like to have this choice is anything wrong with having an option to go for an anti infantry tank , that will survive some more battles ?

I don`t want a overpoweered super tank , no lockdown for the new P4 IST Variant but at least  a firing range that is about the same as the STUH or the Jagdpanther.

See that's where you're not getting it. PE are a specialized faction. They dont have any one unit that can do it all except pzgrens (with the g43 and at nades which suck) but they have units that excel at one thing and suck at the other. Marder > tanks, 50 mm > tanks, p4 ist > infantry, iht infantry until you put tb's in it but that's a customizable unit, then there's the AC which blows vs anything with armor, the latht can do good vs infantry but only with an upgrade. PE are unlike every other faction you can't expec them to be like the other 3, the're their own thing, which is what makes them fun.

[tankspirit668]

See that's where you're not getting it. PE are a specialized faction. They dont have any one unit that can do it all except pzgrens (with the g43 and at nades which suck) but they have units that excel at one thing and suck at the other. Marder > tanks, 50 mm > tanks, p4 ist > infantry, iht infantry until you put tb's in it but that's a customizable unit, then there's the AC which blows vs anything with armor, the latht can do good vs infantry but only with an upgrade. PE are unlike every other faction you can't expec them to be like the other 3, the're their own thing, which is what makes them fun.

Yep, but does not make it more fitting in EIRR Environments. Please don`t say sth like you are not getting it. We are not talking about tactics here or how to use factions. Fact is in EIRR you are bound by pop. If you have specialized units it`s not a very good thing. Even though a Sherman is more versatile and a way longer firing range oit costs only a little bit more and has two more pop.

I can deal with it if the P IV IST sucks against tanks ass, but i cannot live with it if you are considering it as specialised, that it`s weapon range is sooo short. It sucks.

So at the moment we are discussung two possibilies bringing that in balance. At the moment how I see that is that an increase of its weapon range or another complete new P IV IST Variant .

[tankspirit668]

Personal Summary

I try to make some purposals based on the recent discussion, that there seem to be some people who like the Panzer IV IST as it is:

Two things can be done:

Compared to the equivalents of other factions ( Ostwind / Puma + Churchill / Stuart + Churchill Croc ) the P IV lacks range of its main gun.

1 .) An increase of its main gun should be done ( from 30 to 35 or 40 ) to make it more viable against ATGs , Stickies and other handheld AT.

Pro: Probable this change can be done easier

Con: P IV getting maybe OP regards his firing rate and lockdown

2.) P IV gets a complete new variant.

Pro: Can be better Balanced in Pricing, Pop, Firing Rate, Special Abilities like Lockdown can be removed completely. More Variety in PE Arsenal regarding Infantry Support Tanks.

Con: More work needs to be done, probably another unit variety with the same look like the original unit.

What do you think about that guys ?