stealth

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[tank130]

i started this not because storms are op. I just tried to give an idea i had to remove some of this strange stuff like invis sniper and troops runing unseen over streets and all this stuff. And give some kind of replace for the lose of their stealth.

Invisible units running through the streets and fields is what really bugs me. How can a Hellcat sit in the middle of an open field undetected? How can storms walk right up to a tank in the middle of a field?

I purpose all cloak abilities, with exception of sniper, be removed. That in includes all units and factions that currently have cloak abilities.

I then purpose that the affected units have cloak ability in heavy cover only. This would still give an interesting game play while balancing some of the fantasy gaminess of the game.  It would force us to think of strategies aimed at luring the enemy into a trap.

Strafing and arty would not be considered so OP as your units in heavy cover will not be damaged as much.

This option seems the most balanced to me and does not create mirror units.
Storms and piats both have ambush, but are completely different units.
Paks can still cloak in heavy cover only, so the axis do not totally loose their ability.
Allies loose the hell cat, but perhaps that could be replaced by a cloak ability on the ATG. This may create a bit of a mirror unit, but they still have big differences in their stats.

On the subject of mirror units: I don't agree that we should never have mirror units. Some mirrored units would create much more balance and we would quickly learn the good players from the bad. Now it is too easy to blame OP or UP or spam for or loses. Don't miss quote me here, I am saying some mirrored units are OK, but not all as that would become very boring.

Would it really fuck up the game if both allies and axis had AT guns that cloaked in heavy cover? The PE do not have an ATG unit to cloak, but they do have a mobile ATG that can cross the field in 3 freaking seconds.... yes it is fragile to armor attacks, but paks & ATGs are very fragile to infantry attacks so all is fair I think. I personally think the 50mm is OP, but that may be because I am an armor player...lol

Sorry I went so off topic here

[Tymathee]

Here's a cool idea. Change the name of Stormtrooper to Sneaktrooper, and leave all stats and abilities untouched. Problem solved.

haha agreed, because storm troopers were uh, storm troopers not commandos. TBH, the commandos on the brits are more strom troopers and the storm troopers act more like commandos

[Falcon333]

Does the name really have to match the ability?

[Nijo]

Here's a cool idea. Change the name of Stormtrooper to Sneaktrooper, and leave all stats and abilities untouched. Problem solved.

haha agreed, because storm troopers were uh, storm troopers not commandos. TBH, the commandos on the brits are more strom troopers and the storm troopers act more like commandos

thats what i would like to change with for example the high suppress resistance

[Mysthalin]

Does the name really have to match the ability?

Let's call jeeps tank destroyers, and M10s can from now on be reffered to as two's dirty socks.

That will surely not confuse people at all!

[Falcon333]

Does the name really have to match the ability?

Let's call jeeps tank destroyers, and M10s can from now on be reffered to as two's dirty socks.

That will surely not confuse people at all!

I meant for the stormtroopers specifically...

[Groundfire]

idk, i think that removing cloak takes away from the spirit of vCoH.

Thought we only edit vCoH units on rare occasions.

[NightRain]

What happens when stormtroopers lose their cloak? What they become? A normal higher hp Grenadier squad with ability to get assault rifles and or dual Panzershrecks? Their price should be heavily decreased if they lose their special ability of ambush. They should cost like...260 afterwards.

[Falcon333]

What happens when stormtroopers lose their cloak? What they become? A normal higher hp Grenadier squad with ability to get assault rifles and or dual Panzershrecks? Their price should be heavily decreased if they lose their special ability of ambush. They should cost like...260 afterwards.

You mean 260 mp for the squad, or 260 MU for the schrecks?

[Nijo]

omg what about reading everything? and not just the last 3 posts?

[tank130]

What happens when stormtroopers lose their cloak? What they become? A normal higher hp Grenadier squad with ability to get assault rifles and or dual Panzershrecks? Their price should be heavily decreased if they lose their special ability of ambush. They should cost like...260 afterwards.

I am not saying they should loose their cloak. I am suggesting they only have it in heavy cover. Should they receive a price reduction in that case? - Good question. I think the answer would be yes, but not a lot as they still have ambush ability.

[AmPM]

Cloak in ANY cover, so bushes, craters, walls, etc.

[Leafedge]

What happens when stormtroopers lose their cloak? What they become? A normal higher hp Grenadier squad with ability to get assault rifles and or dual Panzershrecks? Their price should be heavily decreased if they lose their special ability of ambush. They should cost like...260 afterwards.

I am not saying they should loose their cloak. I am suggesting they only have it in heavy cover. Should they receive a price reduction in that case? - Good question. I think the answer would be yes, but not a lot as they still have ambush ability.

Storms would be utter shit without the cloak. If you don't use em right, they are a waste even with it. Simple Bar rifles can easily defeat storms in the open - with or without MP44's by using suppression fire, which is a free ability on a cheaper weapon on a cheaper platform. If they have MP44's they lose at a distance and mid distance in cover, as the assault rifles do a worse job at shooter at targets at distance and in cover.

Storms are supposed to be offensive units. They are the first guys to open fire on a defensive position they have snuck into before the main attack pours in. Giving them only cloak in cover would be retarded. There's a reason blitz had no arty for a long time - and some still feel it shouldn't (Myself included), it was because they had storms to fill the same job - breaking up defensive positions. They accomplish it in very different ways, but the job is the same.

If this was done, their usefulness would basically be destroyed - they'd be shittier than grenadiers (worse weapons) and would need a huge price decrease. In fact, you may as well just take them out, because they would indeed just be worse grens, and grens are non doctrinal so there would be no point in storms.

Plus, EIR has always been had a policy of not changing vCoH stats. Even though apparently that rule is now being broken left and right, it's still a good one to follow. It makes it easier for people joining EIR to adapt because they are familiar with the units and stats. The more shit you change, the harder it gets to adapt.

[tank130]

Plus, EIR has always been had a policy of not changing vCoH stats. Even though apparently that rule is now being broken left and right, it's still a good one to follow. It makes it easier for people joining EIR to adapt because they are familiar with the units and stats. The more shit you change, the harder it gets to adapt.
[/quote]

We must keep in mind that vCoH is not a persistency mod and you can not reinforce in EiR. So changing stats may be necessary for this mod to work. Considering we can only field the units we start with, Storms insta gibing tanks doesn't work so well. Perhaps you are right and storms should just be removed instead of modifying. What are your thoughts on the other recommendations I made?

[Nijo]

sometimes i realy think people are not able to read everythink -.-*

its not like we wouldnt give storms something else for their cloak...

[Leafedge]

Well, its true that it doesn't make sense that invisible units can walk down an empty street and not be seen unit they are within a few meters of the enemy. But then again, that doesn't matter. It's a game. It doesn't make sense that Engineers packing submachine guns would ever lose at point blank range to bolt-action rifle wielding volks. But they do. Tanks that go out of control should heavily damage other vehicles they crash into. But they don't. Guys charging into machine gun fire should take horrific damage. But they don't. Snipers should have range much longer than regular infantry, and tanks longer still. But they don't.

Realism is not a part of CoH, and EiR is not a realism mod - I'm really tired of hearing the argument that "It doesn't make sense that ______." Because yes, it does make sense; it makes for good gameplay.

Anyway, as for your other suggestions, Tank, units cloaking in heavy cover with be a huge change to CoH gameplay mechanics and would require a large rebalancing of EiR, as suddenly short range weapons can ambush any enemy unit more more easily.

Or were you talking about just the cloaking units? In that case, you've have to keep in mind they would be receiving a huge nerf. Imagine FJ's that could cloak like storms - It would be ridiculously powerful - and quite unbalanced. Now realize that reverting storms to what FJ's currently have would be ridiculously weak - and destroy their utility. The idea that this would be a nerf to arty is kind of funny - you can already take cover;encouraging people do do so isn't buffer cover, it just means that you are more likely to be somewhere that you already should be anyway. If you made storms like this, then they would be like PIATs. Yeah, they'd still be storms, not sappers, but they'd just be axis sappers, atleast the ones with schreks would be.

On the other hand, I've never been a fan of cloaking tanks. It isn't a huge problem with the hetzer since the silly thing has no turret and therefore you have to be really accurate in predicting enemy movements, and I haven't played EiR since the hellcat was introduced, but I'd imagine it's pretty bad. They idea of a cheap M10 variant defeating a Heavy AT tank like the panther solo really bothers me, and I hear that this happens nowadays. I don't know what the cost is but I hope it is a lot - cheap tanks don't need to be soloing heavies.

As for mirror units, you are going to have to define that more clearly. Personally I'd say unupgraded unvetted rifles and volks are mirrors - sure, they are different, but they work pretty much the same. The same goes for MG's. ATG's are different - and play different, so they aren't mirrors. Still, the axis Pak has already been nerfed so hard I'd hate to see it nerfed more along with an allied ATG buff - the 6 lber already kind of is this.

As for the 50mm halftrack...I quit before it was introduced, so its hard to comment. I don't like the concept in general...but I've never seen it in action either.

In general, my opinion is this - stick to vCoH stats. Use prices to adjust balance, and doctrine abilities if it seems appropriate. For instance, I don't like 57's getting cloak, but an Infantry doctrine ability that allowed that could be fun. Now there are some vCoH things that are messed up - Hellcat ambushes and stormy instagibs, but I think if this can't be solved, it's a lesser problem than one created by messing with stats.

[puddin]

Its a storm squad, Whats wrong with them now..

Your telling me you started this thread, Not because there was a problem... But because you just wanted to see them changed for no reason other then " Hey i think storms need a change today".... 

And thats the reason why they shouldn't... 

Its gren squad availible to blitz thats has its special ability... 

Heard of Comando piats, Rangers, Ab, KTs, Tigers, Pershings, T-17s, Terror officer, American Officer, Defensive OPfficer, Assult flammen PE....

Honestly?  The t-17 was nerfed when it needed no Nerf because of crap like this and now storms are being encouraged for the same

Emplacements lost out because of this stuff, instead of buffing them some they are non exsitent... 

If storms change i will quit on the basis it would be a bullshit change with no merit what-so ever. 

[tank130]

Careful puddin, there's people in this crowd that would celebrate your departure.
Best you not motivate them to push for a storm nerf....LOL

[puddin]

The uniqness of armies and units is being lost by bringing everything too the middle of the road... 

Its just to painfull to see all these armies looking so identical if it happens.  Right now KCH and Officers and all theunique units make the armies unique....

[NightRain]

I totally agree with Leafedge's last paragraph...


Gameplay > Realism

to instagib a sherman one needs 600 manpower and 600 munitions.

One Sherman is 395 Manpower and 240 fuel. Plus its upgrades if it has any. 50 cal, (50 mun) and upgun (60) mun. repair kit (50)

395 Manpower 160 Mun and 240 Fuel. Without upgun and mg and repair its 395 and 240 fuel.

Who pays more?