It seems like we need another KT discussion

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[Dnicee]

 It seems like we need another KT discussion`?

balanced or not?

I just want to point out that i never had any trouble with heavy tanks when i played as airborne-

[shockcoil]

It's not just balanced, its bad

[tank130]

Well is guess if you never had a problem then everything is ok. That's great news for the Mods!!!
Never again mods do you have to check balance or get input on units again. As long as dnice says he has no problem, all is good.

I on the other hand feel there is a problem with the KT. It has an insane amount of HP. In a persistence mod that has limited units, a unit like this is not balanced.

Now don't give me a bunch of fucking crap about use this strat or that strat to take it. I know how to take the fucking thing out. What doesn't make sense is having to use 80% of your units to fight one fucking tank. Go around it you say. Sure easy to say if we are playing 1v1, but the fact is we are not.

Tiger is a big bitch, but so is a pershing. They both have their pros and cons, thus making it balanced. The KT is just a big fucking brute with a shit load of HP that does not add to game play.

Lastly, wtf is up with two in one company. Really?

[Leafedge]

If it takes 80% of your army to kill it, and you have equal pop to him, then wtfl2p. Even if it does, you are killing the KT, not the other way around, so he's losing stuff and you aren't. All is well. In reality, taking 50% of your army to break even against the KT is fair, because the damn thing is half his popcap too. This may have changed a bit since last I played but I assume if it isn't still 20 pop it has to be close.

[Tymathee]

Well the thing is that most players surround their kt's with say, mortars or double lmg's, stuka's, that take out allied at. You can't even use any type of tank against it really. It can two shot at guns and with the fact that German Steel affects KT's now I think that really makes it powerful. I think the KT needs a much higher count in terms of armor, its just that powerful.

I think one of the biggest problem is when there's more than one in a company. It takes a crap load of kt just to take the thing out and then you usually exhaust a lot of it and then boom, here comes another one.

I know you say "well sticky it and its useless" well, it's not so easy because if there's any type of AI around when you start to throw the sticky you start getting raped (it's kinda like you're building so it becomes like 100% accuracy it seems sometimes) also KT's tend to take out 2-3 guys in one shot, i've even seen it take out 4 on occasion.

[panzerman]

i think possibly it should be a limit of 1 KT to a company...used well there a killer unit...

if u look at it's vet bonuses

vet 1     Received Damage 0.9
vet 2     Accuracy 1.15, Health 1.1, Speed 1.15
vet 3      Received Penetration 0.9, Speed 1.15

so it take less damage and then it has more health and speed and then even harder to pentrate as well as even faster.
i think they should remove the Health 1.1 and add maybe damage 1.2... or penetration 1.1. somthing like that...i mean it should still be hard to kill it but not as hard as it is...

i remember 1 game we i was playing a gae and my teammate brought out a a KT (no vet) and it got immobilized very Early on by a stickie... and i sought out to have fun buy defending it with a panther vet 2 and some lmg grens for the heck of it...that kt plus my panther and the lmg grens got about 40 inf kills 6 or 7 tanks destroyed and numerous light vehicles and all this time there had at least been a constant fire on the frontal armour of the kt by an at gun the was recrewed several times... i guess that shows how good it is atm...(he had a second so when that died it pritty much came on and the allies couldn't be arsed to realy try to win this other that to try cap around)

[Mukip]

I thought the devs were talking about limiting the number of Jagds and KTs to one per player a while back, did they change their minds?

[fallensoldier7]

KTs aren't really that great versus good players.. I find my KTs do better when people actually try to take it out.  If people ignore it and don't suicide things chasing it then my KT will have to attack.  Usually this is done by taking out the Axis mortars (aka the support for the KT).  If you really want to kill a KT, kill the mortars and then the KT will be pretty much useless since it is pretty much forced to either sit there or attack.  If it sits there, it's not doing any damage.  If it attacks, the allies can engage it on their own terms and it would be easier to kill it.

[Akranadas]

The whole idea of the KT is to force the enemy to move to kill it, often losing part of their armies in doing so. On larger maps;  players need to make the KT a 18 pop (iirc) waste of time by simply avoiding it. It's slow enough to be avoiding by majority of your forces, if its on the right of the map, attack the left. If it moves to the left, move back to the right.

Don't make the KT your focus and you'll do fine; you don't need to kill it in order to make it ineffective.

[Two]

Needs to cost a bit more but its ok tbh.

[Mysthalin]

KT is quite balanced, IMO.

It can win you the game, or it can die getting 1, single rifle guy kill.

It's really hit or miss.

[shockcoil]

The KT is a big piece of shit. You may get a lot of kills with the thing but its 18 bloody pop cap. You can get a lot more kills with 3 grenadier squads. And thats not taking into account the fact thats its fucking slow, you can literally just ignore it and destroy his woefully under-pop infantry on the field then cap around it. It can't do shit to you.

The problem I can see with the KT at the moment then, is that terror infantry is way too fucking good that you can take on someones full inf army with a few squads so you can afford that KT. Its not a problem with the KT, its terror inf. Namely intensity, zeal, ferocity etc.

[tank130]

The whole idea of the KT is to force the enemy to move to kill it, often losing part of their armies in doing so. On larger maps;  players need to make the KT a 18 pop (iirc) waste of time by simply avoiding it. It's slow enough to be avoiding by majority of your forces, if its on the right of the map, attack the left. If it moves to the left, move back to the right.

Don't make the KT your focus and you'll do fine; you don't need to kill it in order to make it ineffective.

This is the best way to avoid it I agree. Unfortunately, the KT is used on all maps, so your advice is only usable on some of the maps. In the case of a 2v2, there is not a lot of room to avoid it. Keeping in mind, the unit does not take up all of his pop and he still has a partner.

I will give you a couple of examples of imbalance.

In a recent battle some axis players that will remain nameless unless they want their names added:
Because we don't always know what our opponent is going to field at the start of a battle, it is wise game play to start with a balanced opening call in. In my case I start with Mortar, HMG, Bars, ATG, Rifle with stuckies, Flamer/mines. In most cases this serves me well.

Now comes along a KT start. 2 shots and my ATG is down. If I'm lucky I get off a sticky. In most cases the rifle is destroyed before it can throw. I re-man the atg if it was not destroyed, but it is usually one shotted by then. Now the KT just destroys the rest of my callin. I retreat quickly and call in some AT. Meanwhile, my opponents other units cap the whole map as my AT slowly make their way up the field. Or, I could call in some infantry and try to back cap the map. This is easier said than done on a 2v2 map. My opponent under the cover of a KT just simply back caps me and we are back to square one.
Now maybe its just me, but where is the skill and fun in this type of engagement. Play hide and seek getting nowhere and avoiding a battle.I could engage the KT, but this will result in massive loses on my side due to the insane HP of the KT. The KT sucks up all the AT resources in the first 10 min of the game. Then the partner comes on with his armor and its all over.

It is not a balanced unit as it is now. I am not saying remove it from the game. I am saying it needs a nerf to make balanced in this environment. Make it 26 pop cap. It takes at least 26 pop cap to destroy it unless the operator is an idiot.



---Killer344:Chill out, go berzerk like that against someone else on this thread, and consider yourself banned from posting here; Leaf has played with/against KTs more than enough times to make his word count.

[sgMisten]

What makes handling heavy tanks easier is having a spotter (jeep, recon section) spot for ATguns to make use of their 60 range. If you can get the first 1-2 shots, the heavy tank user will be down some life on the heavy tank, and gives you the advantage.

If you're engaging heavy tanks with ATGs at 35 range then the heavy tank is just gonna roll through the ATGs.

[Smokaz]

Aren't you planning airborne, tank? Even if you were playing airborne without recon ability, what possible excuse could you have for not scouting when your best AT option is on quick deploy and you can get it anywhere on the map?

Classic example of someone not scouting. Dont expect to beat something you dont even know what is.

Drop your core, and begin a new streak of starting a game with a spotter and a single infantry squad for capping. Make sure you can combine two anti infantry callins and two anti tank callins from the rest of your company if you see something extreme from the enemy in the first minutes of the game, like a freaking king tiger or 5 volk squads.

Assume you are calling on a rifle and a jeep as your startin force. The rifle caps the surrounding sectors and your jeep finds out what your enemy start with. No loss of early capping power worth mentioning, and TADA!! you also know what you are facing. You can then bring out a counter or a set of units that you think are optimal for fighting what the enemy brought out.

Why...Do...People..Refuse...To..scout?

Why do they refuse to scout? What is so terrible about knowing what the other guy has brought out before you make a decision about how to counter units you know nothing about?

Not scouting is like walking into the game blind. Not scouting, and always bringing the same core is like walking into the game blind with the same set of cards each time. People will know when to fold, raise or bluff.

[Smokaz]

Clap clap, Baine..

Example starting callins that insure you against getting raped by a gimmick:

Wehr - Swimmwagon/Bike + Grenadier w/shrek/medikit/nade (Move up bike, cap)

Americans - Double flameengineers with mines/Riflesquad with sticky + jeep (Lay mines, Cap, move up jeep)

British - Commandos have a jeep, send out a recon and a jeep, or do a recon
          -  RCA can send out a recon section with their improved range

PE - Start with a scout car and a shrek clowncar, both can cap
       Start with two infantry squads and a kettenkrad

See, all the factions have options on how to spot something super gimmicky. The gimmick start is entirely reliant on you not scouting, you not expecting or you not having expendable units in the front to discover what kind of shenanigans they are up to.

If I saw a KT in the starting callin, that leaves precious little infantry support. Mop up this with some kind of supression or sucide attack and then cap around it. Seeing as terror player will usually have firestorm, I will not call in five 57mms and line them up next to each other. Instead I might go for a sticky halftrack (any american company should have this) and a m10. With vet 2 and a proper flank, theres just no way a halftrack-delivered rifle squad cant get a sticky off on a KT without severe fuckup.

[Mysthalin]

If someone did a KT start, I'd facepalm so bad the echo of it could be heard on jupiter.

[puddin]

The Kts are beasts yes...  But like many heavies... Circling them is killing them, Any artillry, The 25 punder.. Captain arty, Howie arty and cali eliminate all supporting forces around it enough to dmg it more...  

You can coem in from 1 side and hurt it and run away before it fires a shot.  

1 bren carrier with a wsingle piat squad took down a KT.. Circle strafing for the win.

Sticky, Button rapes Kts as well.  

Look people, ITs a beast, We all know it is... But its slow, Clumsy and lumbering to the point of shit at most times.  

When each player has 1 on a t a time its horendous.  

What i find to be the real PRoblem... 4 man KCH prtecting KTs with a Terror officer that slows.  

BEst combination to kill everything, Have yet to find a countwer to it, and never will

[Ununoctium]

Pudding, your forgetting the Jedi Highlanders that start the game and end as 1-2 men supporting the kt with their lightsabers

(zealed gren hordes)

[tank130]

Let me start here:
we have 17 posts. 6 say there is a problem with the KT, 8 say they are fine, 3 are about Recon, and one has nothing to do with anything, but is rather funny.

To those who posted in regards to Recon; Perhaps you could start a thread on the merits of Recon. This was a discussion on the OP or not OP of the KT. Perhaps you could also note that I specifically requested not to give your advice on how to counter a KT.

To smokaz; Thanks for coming out and sharing your vast knowledge of the game. If I choose to play airborne, I may look you up and ask for your advice. In the mean time, get your facts straight before you post.

In regards to my "berzerk post" I do apologize if I offended anybody with the words I chose to describe my opinion.  However, I do not apologize to the person to whom it was aimed at. If you tell me "wtfL2p" when you openly admit to not actively playing the mod, expect me to reply in kind to your insulting remark.

To Killer344: While I respect your responsibility to ensure our posts are not out of line, I think it is equally important for a mod not to take sides in a dispute while threatening to ban someone. Your opinion of Leafs merit on the subject should be posted as a member, not as a mod.

As an active participant ( daily ) of this mod, I  feel my opinion on the subject would perhaps be more accurate than that of a member who does not participate.

I don't post a whole lot in these forums. Sometimes I add a little joke comment, but generally I just read. Every now and then I get really tired of something I truly feel is out of line and I post about it. One thing you will never see me do is bitch about the devs and make comments about how shitty stuff is. Even when for a little while, things were not so good.

I strongly dislike individuals who bitch and complain about a fee mod. I on the other hand, rarely bitch, but happily donated $200.00 to the development of this mod. When I decide it's time to speak up about a problem in a mod that I actually helped finance in a small way, the last thing I expected was someone to tell me WTFL2P and have a mod defend him.

While I admit my use of language was not completely appropriate, could you explain how my words were any more insulting then those used by Leaf? I assume its not just because he used abbreviations.

Hopefully we can all move forward and have a discussion about KT again.