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[Tymathee]

So stack up on At guns? oh wait, we have some companies that have assault gren spam, so we need MG's and inf, oh wait, they can beat them, adn we dont have eneough recorces anymore to counter the medium artillery there throwing at us...

Did you just totally overlook this?

Umm no they're not, so says the 5 AP round ATGs that lost to two jadgs who bounced every shot and killed all the guns/crews.

jagds are way too accurate vs at guns. Usually takes about 2 hits to kill and they do it in about 4-5 shots, everytime. They have almost as much health as a KT, more speed and as strong a gun.

[bbsmith]

How about we arrange a game?

[lionel23]

I played against AmPm, Pak, CamXXX (whatever number he had), Computer when he was running his allies (Gave up on them cause they were so weak compared to his axis army), Mystalin (sp?), and well a few others like Puddin but some people I can't find because they are waiting for the real reset again after the tourney, but I had a lvl 8 PE Luft squad, used nothing but falljs and luft infantry backed up by 88s and flakvirlings, man that was such a power army, couldn't be silenced by arty and 88s could be remanned if the crew was ever hit directly, heh.

No I haven't posted replays, been asking Velocity to do some as I forgot what the 2nd file was (saved the replays, but don't have the correct battleSGA file or whatever anymore), and been playing good/decent allies teams, and when I usually play I play several games in a row because I come home to get some in before heading to bed, not thinking about grabbing all my games and 'rage posting' every single loss.

The complaints have been brought up by many other allied players, and I have been harassed enough in channel about my 'bitching' and complaining simply because I'm one few vocal and non-lazy forum goers on the allied side (prods other allied players who he knows are too lazy) *Ahem*  

Assemble a team of 4 axis players who don't rely on the crutch of a super heavy or pair of super heavies, and we'll see some fairer games (hence why I went the non-super heavy doctrines), but right now I'm seeing exactly what I saw pre-wipe, and that is the abundance of mass Super heavys that must be brought out to stomp the utter shit out of allies just for the hell of it.

And in response to Tym, every allied can to attest that a Jadg is just too powerful for that very reason.  It's a tank destroyer and being that 'ATGs' are vehicles, they can two shot any allied ATG and being US ATGs take double the time to fire over paks, doesn't exactly help out.  So two jadgs can instant kill an allied ATG, rinse and repeat, then run over or deal with weak allied armor without buffs against a T3 unit as appropriate.

[CrazyWR]

no way, 2 of the most expensive units PE has together can beat 1 4 pop unit that costs about 1/3 of its total price?  Holy shit, who saw that one coming?

[Tymathee]

oh and btw, jagds are way too freaking accurate vs infantry as well, i'm tired of my infantry in buildings being killed by a dang jagd.

[Smokaz]

Btw if you keep a sticky squad next to your at gun 

*shock*

You can force the jagd to back up, and on the move its accuracy against a 57mm should be neglible

Really, the whining about this tank is only justified when you fight the jagd with stuff it excels at dealing with.. like tanks or tank destroyers.  Sure the jagd lays down the law on these things, its what its intended to do. And now that it got a price increase, it certaninly does not need any further nerfs.

Once AP rounds get back in, armor doctrine with this T4 will munch up any single tank (like they did pre-patch) and people whose definition of american hardcounter AT (sticky + 57mm) will keep on doing fine.

Only airborne or blitz can fight (and the first doc better than the second) tanks with handheld AT only. All the other doctrines ned to mix it up. Even airborne struggles against certain vehicles.

The 57mm is the key to fighting the heavies and the super heavies. It outranges them by far. All it requires is to have a sticky in support and a spotter (jeep doubles as blocker), and the super tank is effectively neutered.

[lionel23]

But what they fight is made up a HUGE investment in MU, or are you forgetting that?

Let's look at the Axis (2 Jadgs):

630 MP, 0 MU, 595 FU x 2 = 1260 MP, 1190 FU

Allies:

4 ATGs
380 MP, 110 MU, 0 FU x 5 = 1520 MP, 440 MU
All upgraded to AP Rounds 40 MU x 4 = 160 MU

Total so far: 1520 MP, 600 MU

2 Upgunned Shermans (going to negate 50 cal and repair kit as they don't help in a direct battle with Jadg):

395 MP, 60 MU, 240 FU x 2 = 790 MP, 120 MU, 480 FU

Total so far: 2310 MP, 720 MU, 480 FU

Plus a squad or two of rangers and airborne.  Jadgs are at max range (not running into the middle of this allied army to be swarmed/surrounded/flanked and be protected by support weapons, prepared infantry and support tanks if stickys get close).

Axis v Allies comparison (believe I did my math right, someone might need to double check me):

1260 MP, 1190 FU (VS) 2310MP, 720 MU, 480 FU

Tell me where this 1/3rd price comes in for allies, please?  This is grossly imbalanced in favor of the axis.  So LITTLE resources are consuming much of the main AT firepower and thus the core of the allied forces dedicated to just defeating tanks. And I tell you what, I will also take this moment to predict with 99% certainty that an axis team will win the upcoming tourney too, and will be using super heavies also.

EDIT: Note I said the engagement is at long range for the Jadgs on Schjindel, so impossible for infantry to sticky bomb it, leaving it up to RRs, tanks, bazookas, and ATGs to go at it front on with AP rounds also.

[Lai]

Hmm, I always lost as axis. Especially as wehrmacht; that's why I don't play anymore. 

[bbsmith]

Oh. Lai never won any games.

[lionel23]

Problem is that NOW, with Jadgs in but no doctrines are in, and with a TOURNEY coming up, it's currently heavily in favor of the axis. And don't tell me the Jadg doesn't excel at ATG busting, being its super heavy armor to bounce AP shots and it can two-shot an allied ATG.

And so what if Armor gets AP rounds?  So only 1 out of 6 allied doctrines should be able to counter this doctrine specific unit? That reason alone shows it's too powerful where only one specific thing can even hope to penetrate it.

[Smokaz]

At maximum effort, you are countering a jagd with a jeep, 57mm and a sticky squad. Thats 12 pop, and the jagd can do NOTHING about this combination other than in the long run hope to pick off the entire six-man rifle squad (who can hide behind shot blockers) or the jeep (good luck hitting a moving jeep with a jagd).

To the above post by lionel, you can line up 10 57mms if they are all facing the wrong way. Brute mass isnt neccessarily the key to countering a high health unit, it has to be worn down, disabled or tricked.

It really isnt that hard to neuter, slow down or close off movement for jagdpanthers. It simply cannot afford to be stickied, which means it can never move forward into a sticky squad. Does that mean the jagd user will attempt to flank you? Probably, but the player esponse to that will actually have be moving in turn to deal with his new position.

Theres no such a thing as calling on 4 at guns and declaring: You cant use your jagd now, I have 4 at guns. The jagd is 16 pop tied into a single gun pointing one way. It cant succeed against well used combined arms on its own, it can however tank an assault very well because of its armor and its health. But if its the support eliminating your counters, dont blame the jagd. 

If microing a jeep, at gun and a rifle squad proves too much all you need to do to control the movement of a jagd is to have a sticky squad. Nobody wants their jagd stickied as it slows down the return to the repair point, it makes pathing mishaps even more dangerous. The only scenarios where the jagd truly dominates is where it sits around tons of paks and shreks, and that begs for artillery to dissolve it or when its speed is being used by moving it around the map. Again a sticky squad will need to stay on the move to keep it from advancing into something you dont want it advancing on.

1 mine can also create a huge problem for the jagd. It trips the mine, and boom repair wasted. A player with 2 jagds in his company will have trouble fielding important stuff like vampire, mortar and infantry halftracks to support his infantry force. Lets not discourage the notion that a company like that places all its eggs in one basket.

[fallensoldier7]

Lionel I play Allies too and I think superheavies are fine.  I also play Axis so I know what kills a superheavy, having been on both sides of it.

Even if what you say is true (that the tourney favors Axis) it won't be a problem since each team will have to play at least 1 game on each side in each round.

I think the main problem people have with fighting super heavies is they try to kill it in 1 fell swoop.  Sometimes this will work if the superheavy is unsupported, but most of the time if you zerg all of your forces at it, the superheavy won't die.  You might get the kill, but you will have wasted a ton to kill it.  I find killing superheavies to be easy if you just be patient and keep nibbling away at them.  Keep looking for opportunities for a sticky bomb, and when the opportunity comes, seize it hungrily.  Use ATGs to push it back.  You don't have to destroy the superheavy in order to render it useless.  If you have 2 ATGs, get a spotter and set them up so they can hit at the superheavy at the edge of the ATG's range.  Most likely the superheavy won't try to run up and start hitting the ATGs if there are 2 shooting at it at once, so the superheavy will fall back.  Use your infantry and other units to protect your ATGs if they try to take them out with their tanks or infantry, and keep your ATGs moving after each engagement to avoid indirect fire.  I think this is called an "ATG Creep" but I can't be entirely sure with CoH terms.  If there's a superheavy on the field you can ward it off by having a vet 2 riflesquad (sticky would be nice).  I guarantee you that if a superheavy ever sees a vet 2 riflesquad nearby, it will think twice about approaching.  Use shotblockers and some wit to keep the vet 2 rifles alive on the frontlines.

Please don't use tanks against superheavies.  Unless you can swarm an unsupported superheavy with 5 tank destroyers, you will lose your tanks 10/10.

Lionel when you do your math you're forgetting that you can use your ATGs to counter other Axis vehicles and tanks.  They aren't put into your company just for countering superheavies.  AP round usage, since you only get 2, should be saved for when you can get either rearshots on the enemy tank or if it's guaranteed to get 2 shots off.  Don't pop AP if the tank is at max range; it's a waste.

[lionel23]

I have no problems countering other tanks and vehicles with rangers and sticky bombers, who can do so rather well without having to sacrifice themselves.  And since Bob and Smokaz says the primary use of the ATG is to deny Heavies/Superheavies, let's go with that.

And what happens in the tourney when say two axis teams beat the other two teams allied parts?  Now we can't have a mirror match.... like Jadg vs King Tiger, so then what?

And these tanks were 'supported' by 4 AP round ATGs, RR Airborne, and rangers.  Other than what was hiding and not directly supporting this engagement, it was pretty much the Jadgs at max range with a bike sniping as far as possible and two-shotting ATGs, who all had a jadg targetted (not a creep for axis or anything) and in which every shell went off.  I'll speak with LittleHillBilly about this whenever he gets on (I forget he's in Europe I think, different time zone) and he can attest to how useless AP rounds are against super heavys.  Against normal thats the ATG and AP is fine, but super heavies seriously change the battlefield, and then you got the super rotating, super speedy and super armored/upgunned Jadg on the field, then yeah shit hits the fan at this point.

On the question of 'saving' the ATG shots, how the heck are you suppose to quickly flank a jadg that comes in from a flank and you're facing it?  The ATG cannot cloak, so it's location is always known, and again the gun is two-shotted before it can even try to get in a position.  In a head on fight, a jadg will obliterate a defended allied position like I said due to sheer strength of its almost non-penetrable armor, and thus for very little resource cost can quickly decimate a very, very significant chunk of most allied forces.

[Smokaz]

No the 57mm is your main at. Its your MAIN non-doctrinal AT. Its the cornerstore of the US AT. Its the only unit the axis vehicles and tanks wont slug it out with frontally by kiting. Why? Because most likely, the exchange isnt cost effective for them.  Not airborne, not m10s, not rangers. The 57mm is your main AT as a american player. Its not solely a counter to superheavies.

Supporting your 57mms is by no means a easy task. But the tools are right there in the game and they are non-doctrinal. Sticky rifles, mines, blocking vehicles and spotters are all non-doctrinally competent and able to defeat any type of axis tank, heavy or not heavy.

Only by being healed over and over and microed perfectly does airborne pretend to replace it. If a p4 and a airborne sits next to each other, the airborne will most likely die before the p4 is noticeably less than half health. Rangers carry zooks, and relic designed zooks to be a flanking weapon that also can defeat light vehicles at medium-short range. Thats how they have been carried over to EIRR as well, from a non-doctrinal view.

There's no credible way to champion that the 57mms are useless or less than critical to the purpose of fighting off axis heavies and super heavies, so just let that go Lionel. In fact a while back it was considered a valid yelling reason (mmm I love that sentence) in ventrilo to have less than three or four 57mms in your company. All the handheld AT in the game have glaring weaknesses that can be heavy-handedly exploited: RRs suck against AC's and Pumas, zooks have bad frontal penetration and shreks have bad long range accuracy.

[lionel23]

And we are using main non-doctrinal AT with doctrinal support (elite infantry) and non-doctrinal tanks upgunned to fight tanks (Sherman with Upgun beats a p4 right? So it should be better than an non-upgun and should contribute to the fight).

So what was the point of your post?  We had the ATG, the infantry, the tanks... against a pair of Jadgs, and all rounds failed to penetrate or really harm even one of them, let alone two.... so your argument is flawed in that regard Smokaz.

Also just noticed your last post, apparently I somehow missed it.  It can be very tough to get to sticky range with Vet 0 riflemen as the jadg accelerates backwards far, far too fast for the animation to play properly without interruption.  And all the axis have to do is stick an ostwind behind the jadgs and viola, no infantry can get near it due to its 'stop/stunning' effect and rapid fire.  Combined arms works well for allies except when it comes into direct opposition with mass super heavies.

I have NO PROBLEMS microing units, I don't know where you got that idea, I love micro.  But when some of said tactics require doctrine buffs (yeah I did use short fuses to good effect, and mobile cover also to assist said riflemen tactics) or vet to use more effectively against such super heavies... the field is skewed heavily in favor of the axis.  Give me a balanced game with doctrines or remove any unit that does not have a mirror counter/equivalent and then tell me that again.

[bbsmith]

Topic Split

[Smokaz]

1 game with possibly bad luck that nobody can dispute because we can't see the replay. On the other hand we have opposing notions that what is being described to have happened in that replay is not what reguarly happens or needs to happen every game, that exact way. I wish people would post these games that fire up threads like this so people could actually observe what is being lent credit to trump up some balance witchhunt.

The point is that I compeletely disagree that jagdpanthers or any other of the heavies are hard to counter or overpowered against their counters. Especially the idea that the jagd is OP against 57mms is hard to swalllow, since all my own experience sways me towards 57mms being perfectly fine against heavies/superheavies.

[lionel23]

If anyone sees LittleHillBilly (may have a different timezone than a US East Coaster), ask him if he has that replay, I know me and Velocity don't have it anymore...

I'll see if I can get with someone and test out the ATG against frontal armor of Jadgs in mass and all that sometime and record it, guess you're asking for footage then?

[Prydain]

tl;dr

[Computer991]

tl;dr

seriously,lionel theres no problem with heavy tanks :X i used a 17 pounder to kill 3 jags one game.. so i know you can do it too