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[vreid]

...And, of course, the Panther tank took around 150,000 man-hours to make, per tank. The Sherman took 4000-5000.

they had enough jewish kz prisoners working in subsurface factories on military equipment
thats why there was often some sabotaged stuff
and it was a dictatorship were money and working people does not matter
only resources limit what they could build and there were to big tanks like TigerII Jagdtiger and later on the Maus eating many resources and to many enemies to fight (mainly Russia).

In a war between US and the Axis without Russia the german tanks would have kicked the shit out of all US could ever bring.
Actually the crap US tanks would got ass handed when us would not have been an (like we would say in CoH) opportunist someone who scrounge something where others bear the brunt.

[smurfORnot]

if only they did not attack russia so early...luckly for us non germans,hitler was not the best tactician out there...but you gotta agree,their army was best looking army on the field

[rifle87654]

but i think because panther is only a 75mm longer barrel tank
that's only high velocity only for killing tanks
so it's anti inf is horrible

[LeoPhone]

if only they did not attack russia so early...luckly for us non germans,hitler was not the best tactician out there...but you gotta agree,their army was best looking army on the field

like they would be able to win then, im sure allies would still have most air control.

[smurfORnot]

air control from where? Brittani would be under Germany...

[LeoPhone]

air control from where? Brittani would be under Germany...

and how would they do that? use their navy that else would have been used in the soviet union? the only extra they would get are tanks and manpower. those two dont like to swim.

[smurfORnot]

Brittani alone would fall,no mater what...sooner or later...but definitely before yanks came...

[Smithy17]

Brittani alone would fall,no mater what...sooner or later...but definitely before yanks came...

Seeing that they already tried to plan an invasion, found it was unfeasible and couldn't get air superiority anyway ...
All before Barbarossa

[vreid]

air control from where? Brittani would be under Germany...

and how would they do that? use their navy that else would have been used in the soviet union? the only extra they would get are tanks and manpower. those two dont like to swim.

there was already an invasion plan of British islands called seelowe in 1940 (but they never followed this plan)
they let almost 400.000 British soldiers free retreat including military equipment in june 1940
they could have taken all of them into war captivity but they don't.
British would have almost lost their complete equipments and huge amounts of their army not even talking about public backup for the government in this case
hitlers intention was probably never to make war with Britain
Less than one year later hitler sent his fugleman rudolf hess to Britain to make peace but he got treated as prisoner.

[Killer344]

vreid/AlfonsHustler/temnozor

Say goodbye to all your accounts BigDick, if you would have kept a low profile in game/forums/behaviour, you would have been allowed to stay... but oh.. well, we should have known. Anyway, proxies aren't 100% effective. Keep making accounts please, I'm bored and I need to ban shit.

[sheffer]

You should ask for your money back.

Please, no more offense. Its friendly community, and u are not a trolls. I hope.

For example Panther go to attack at the average 11 times (USSR 3 times, US - 5 times) thanks to design.

I think u just not understand my point. Its not about 11 successfull panther attacks, it is about repear infrastructure of damaged in battle heavy tanks, evacuation sistem (Bergetiger, Bergepanther etc.). For germans those tanks cost too much to leave them on a battlefield (its right and for Pz. IV and other armored vechicles). "thanks to design" = repear accessibility i mean

German APCR production was always very limited due to a certain Krupp monopoly on tungsten ore.

Monopoly was not a problem. Deficiency of tungsten and copper was a problem (electric transmission on Panthers, u know). German indastry work with overstrain, tendency was numbers, not quality. its about optics too (binocular sight changed for mono). For example Pz.IV Ausf J (june 44 - marth 45 - 2392 vechicles built) was no support engine for turret rotation - only hand drive with samething about 600 circular motion for 360 degrees turret rotation.

I'd assume the steel plates (of panther) being almost twice as thick as those on the T-34 would increase weight more than the engine.

Thickness of steel plates was an consequence of increased weight. Tech task for panther was taken by Daimler-Benz at 25 nov 1941:
width - 3150mm
hight - 2990mm
Engine power - 650-700 horsepowers
front armor - 40mm
max speed - 55 km\h
Weapon - 75mm KwK 42 L/70 and 50mm KwK 39 L/60 ("Light Panther")

What they got?  (comparatively with T34)
Panther                      
width - 3270mm
hight - 2995mm
length - 9090mm

T34
width - 3000mm
hight - 2450mm (!)
length - 6680mm (!!)

Why so serious defference? Because of using gasoline engine  AND electric transmission with cardan shaft through tank body (increased hight, length). It all about different schoolls of tank building, same thing with Sherman (3370 without .50 Browning). It just
impossible for germans to copy T34, it was not upgrade, it was complite rebuild of concept. Who need same armor and weapon with +10 tonns weight?  They decide to increase front armor first up to 60mm (first  series, used for training) then up to 80mm (Ausf. A) and then up to 85 (front) and 100 (turret).

About M18
Who said that M18 was bad? great speed, firepower and with 2580mm hight - good ambusher and AT. But US antitamk defence doctrine turned for 180 in 1944 to tank vs tank battles, and production of M18 was stoped. Pershing time.

[acker]

why would i care to quote both sides tables. the above quote is good enough. i cant care less for all the nitty gritty.

Do you think Panthers Shot HE rounds at Enemy tanks? APCR/AP rounds w/e i dont care. bottom line is they all penetrate

The above quote is not good enough. If the M36 had trouble penetrating a 100mm curved glacis plate (effective thickness-120mm), the Panther definitely had issues penetrating 108mm of the same. APCR does not equate APCBC.

Assuming both can kill the other? Consider mobility, production, maintenance, optics, etc. Guess who has the advantage.

they had enough jewish kz prisoners working in subsurface factories on military equipment
thats why there was often some sabotaged stuff
and it was a dictatorship were money and working people does not matter
only resources limit what they could build and there were to big tanks like TigerII Jagdtiger and later on the Maus eating many resources and to many enemies to fight (mainly Russia).

Having forced labor (that knows you're going to kill them anyways) working on your tanks is a minus for the Panther, not a plus. In wartime scenarios, money is no object. However, all the money in the world isn't going to build a tank faster than someone can put it together.

That 150,000 man-hours is an utter waste of opportunity to build, I don't know, more fighters, subs, shells, AAA, radar, whatever. You know, the stuff Germany never had enough of. Like spare parts.

I think u just not understand my point. Its not about 11 successfull panther attacks, it is about repear infrastructure of damaged in battle heavy tanks, evacuation sistem (Bergetiger, Bergepanther etc.). For germans those tanks cost too much to leave them on a battlefield (its right and for Pz. IV and other armored vechicles). "thanks to design" = repear accessibility i mean

Germany did not have an effective recovery/repair system. Germany neglected recovery vehicle production in order to make more armored vehicles (they even shut down unarmored halftrack production in 1943). Due to time constraints for production, Germany spent more time building finished products than it did replacement parts (the most infamous example being the 10 Tigers for 1 spare Tiger engine). It didn't help that German tanks were heavier, requiring larger support vehicles for refit/repair.

[Sixpack]

I think I´ll just humor Bigs alts.......

Lets see. Without Russia in play german armour development would have been slower meaning more lower tanks but huge quantities and an elite army.
That would mak every allied landing after Sizily a deathtrap thanks to the huge ammounts of troops the axis could throw away.
Air Superiority, dunno how that would work out, could go either way depending on development.

Now moving to Seelöwe:
That would have been the worst Joke/military failure to happen if it would have been tried.
It would have been easyer to kill britain by bombing the airfields 24/7 (instead of going for towns) and investing heavily into submarines, that could have made it.

And now to people who talk about crappy german optics and bad gunnery:

Russischer Funkspruch vom ersten Kontakt mit dem Panther aus dem Jahr 1943:

   „Feind hat einen neuen Panzer eingeführt! Äußeres ähnlich dem «Tridsatchedverka» (T-34)! Der Panzer ist schwer gepanzert und sein Gewicht könnte zwischen 40 und 50 Tonnen betragen! Wahrscheinlich bewaffnet mit 88-mm-Flakkanone! Wir haben starke Verluste auf Entfernungen von über 2000 Metern ...!“

This was an intercepted russian message about the first engagement with Panthers, roughly translatet:

Enemy deployed a new heavy tank! Exterior like a T34! The Tank is armored heavyli with a weight between 40 and 50 tons! Probably armed with a 88-mm-AAgun! We have heavy losses at ranges of over 2000 Meters (over 2 km).

This message is something you can find sometimes on german sites ^.^.

[Malevolence]

Bit of an old thread but for Skaffa I found an account by a Russian tanker assigned to an M4 Sherman here. Obviously that's just a few pages of preview from Google books, but taken from the introduction one thing caught my eye - that Stalin put along complaints about gasoline powered tanks tending to catch fire while the later diesel using ones did not.

German tanks ran exclusively on gasoline, not diesel, while the Sherman and T-34 were both diesel-driven. Which one probably caught fire more often? If the correlation is as related to the causation as it appears, probably the German tanks.

[Duckordie]

Allies are like playing Zerg in Starcraft,

They are week and ugly, but if you play them right, you rule the game.

Axis are like Protos, not that hard... If u don't get Swarmed by Zergs

[Dnicee]

Allies are like playing Zerg in Starcraft,

They are week and ugly, but if you play them right, you rule the game.

Axis are like Protos, not that hard... If u don't get Swarmed by Zergs

tbh zerg is not hard at all and protoss is the faction or race hardest to play in starcraft.

[Duckordie]

No dude, Zerg is the Hardest In Normal Starcraft, (In Pro)
Due they are quite forced to rush (More micro)

[Malevolence]

Allies are like playing Zerg in Starcraft,

They are week and ugly, but if you play them right, you rule the game.

Axis are like Protos, not that hard... If u don't get Swarmed by Zergs

tbh zerg is not hard at all and protoss is the faction or race hardest to play in starcraft.

Bit off-topic but it's generally considered that the order of ease of play between the races of SC is Protoss, Terran, Zerg in increasing order of difficulty to play (physically speaking, the metagames are each roughly as difficult as each other).

[Lai]

The order of strength is Terran>Zerg>Protoss. Terran has been the best historically followed by zerg. Protoss dominance was only during a short period (the six dragons). Of course it's map dependant. APM requirements are highest for Terran>Zerg>Protoss. Late game zerg might be more APM intensive.

[Malevolence]

Zerg is most APM intensive - they are a macro heavy expansion reliant high unit count race. Protoss is the least APM intensive. This obviously by process of elimination leaves Terran in the middle.

I would wager that a Terran going old school M&M into science vessel could be about as APM intensive as Zerg, but with the trend going towards mech these days once the vulture harass is over the APM cap is definitely in the hands of Zerg players (unfortunately for them).