2 mines for pios nondoctrinal?

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[Smokaz]

Putting this out there to the general community.

Its a long standing complaint that wehrmacht has no mobile or flexible way to move around an ability to destroy engines, button or stun vehicles and tanks.

What if pioneers could deploy buy 2 mines instead of 1? Would this help even it out somewhat.

Do you feel its fair that wehr needs a doctrine ability to do what Brits and Americans do for free?

Post your thoughts.

[NightRain]

2 mines for 2 pop Wehrmacht
2 mines for 3 pop US

Reason why

1 Mine 2 pop

[Smokaz]

Let say Pios got 3 mines for 50 munitions, and engineers got 4 mines for 45.

Lets say mine squads could no longer carry demos or flamethrowers or goliaths.

What then?

[Dragon2008]

Let say Pios got 3 mines for 50 munitions, and engineers got 4 mines for 45.

Mine spam FTW

[Smokaz]

I get this "omg minespam" comment from quite a few reactions.. but minesweepers are dirt cheap in pop and cost now.. imo they should be a much more valued part of the game.. real armies sure as hell didnt forego minesweepers

[Unkn0wn]

Even with mine detectors being dirt cheap, it's harder to counter them than you're making it seem.
I played against Wind's tellerspam the other day, I had mine detectors and mine flails all over the place but that still didnt stop my team from running into them. (It's really not that convenient to keep a 2 man detector squad alive in a dangerous combat environment)

In addition, the sheer thought that there could be a mine anywhere on the field makes the game fairly unenjoyable (heavily restricting mobility, etc) to play. You're better off playing minesweeper if you like it so much :p

The psychological effects of minespam are just as bad if not worse for gameplay than the spam itself

[Smokaz]

The psychological ... whaaat?

What about the psychological effect of seeing your lmg grens being slaughtered by carabine rifles? Your tiger dying to 4 rr squads that dropped on top of it.. 

Not using minesweepers is something of the past now, all the good players use those squads.

Now a question for me is how the "good" players that crash their blobs of armor or t17s into close range with your AT infantry would end up being.. if wehrmacht could employ mines a little more effectively than 1 mine per pio

[LCII^Bun-Bun]

Even with mine detectors being dirt cheap, it's harder to counter them than you're making it seem.
I played against Wind's tellerspam the other day, I had mine detectors and mine flails all over the place but that still didnt stop my team from running into them. (It's really not that convenient to keep a 2 man detector squad alive in a dangerous combat environment)

In addition, the sheer thought that there could be a mine anywhere on the field makes the game fairly unenjoyable (heavily restricting mobility, etc) to play. You're better off playing minesweeper if you like it so much :p

The psychological effects of minespam are just as bad if not worse for gameplay than the spam itself

You mean a bit like seeing unvetted riflemen and you don't know if they can trow stickies at you from 20 meters away? Dude, I personally think that stickies are a lot more "Psychological" effective than mines, I mean, I literally fear EVERY normal, unvetted riflemen squad as soon as it is near one of my tanks... That is QUITE rediculous.

[LeoPhone]

id like to see how it turns out with some more mines on the field. real pros in coh also use lots of mines, but here in eir you just cant place any lot of them.
it has become even worse when the unit supply system was put in, too much pios in ur army = not good for the grens.

also, if mine availabilty gets higher m10 will need mineflail.


now ive read unkowns post, its indeed probably not good for the gameplay. renember 1 mine blows up tanks engine or almost totally destroys one squad's health.

maybe this would still be kinda cool if you could place one mine per time instead of 3 clustered together. it would slow tank like volks mine, also do some dmg and basically snipes one rifleman and supresses the rest.

the thing i never liked that you cant just mine an entire field full of mines, but theres always just one mine sitting somewhere. cant SE doctrine get an ability that drops butterfly mines that are a bit stronger vs vehicles in a much larger radius with more distance between the mines?

[Smokaz]

TO BE FAIR.. the pop argument really only comes into play in extreme scenarios where people field a LOT of mine squads. Why should this completely overrule normal play where both factions want to start with 2 mines but wehrmacht is forced to go 1 pop over americans for just wanting to field 2 mines?

[Unkn0wn]

You mean a bit like seeing unvetted riflemen and you don't know if they can trow stickies at you from 20 meters away? Dude, I personally think that stickies are a lot more "Psychological" effective than mines, I mean, I literally fear EVERY normal, unvetted riflemen squad as soon as it is near one of my tanks... That is QUITE rediculous.

First off you're comparing the average use of mines in EIR (since minespam is quite uncommon in the current metagame) to the abundant amount of riflemen fielded by every allied player. A correct analogy would be to compare the excessive spamming of mines with that abundant amount of riflemen being spammed instead.

Stickies do indeed have an incredible psychological effect, every rifleman is a potential damaged engine. I'm sure every axis player shares this fear. This fear is however not as bad as the fear that would derive from the excessive spamming of mines, simply because you can just treat every rifleman as a 'don't go near zone'. You can kite them with tanks and avoid getting close to any rifleman squad all together without too much issues.

Mine spam on the other hand is entirely invisible, the counter to it is rarely present and when present does not always succeed. (Again, mine detector engineers are a vulnerable unit, a smart mine spammer would prevent you from detecting his mines.)

Because of that spam, the entire map (not just parts of it with a certain unit on it) feels like a no-go zone severely restricting or even destroying your mobility.

[CafeMilani]

if pios (2pop) could have 2 mines the upgrade should cost slightly more than mines for engineers (3pop)
on the other side pio mines shouldnt cost more than engie mines because you dont have a vehicle disabler as wehrmacht

[Baine]

if pios (2pop) could have 2 mines the upgrade should cost slightly more than mines for engineers (3pop)
on the other side pio mines shouldnt cost more than engie mines because you dont have a vehicle disabler as wehrmacht

You could make it add +1 pop to the pio squad if it's a problem with that.

[pqumsieh]

I have to agree with unknown on this one. I do not think we want to shift the focus of this game to mine spam. I think this is already a severe threat to gameplay and does ruin many individuals game experience. The solution is not to add another mine to wehr, rather, remove the double mine from engineers.

Although you can easily get a minesweeper, actually being able to use them is another story. They are terribly fragile units and you can never have enough map control to detect all mines. So although they are a counter, they aren't a very effective counter in many scenarios.

Wind has already shown how powerful mine spam can be. And from personal experience it completely ruined my gaming experience. In many ways its far worse than sticky spam.

PQ

edit: Did someone fuken edit my post? Mine spam is worse than sticky spam imo...

[Smokaz]

You guys are refusing to use counters here. Minesweepers, tank mineflails are in the game for a reason. You pay for a safety. As earlier stated you dont need to actually sweep the mine. All you need to know is where it is, and a quick poke in there will accomplish this.

Its in no way better game design or less ruining of the game experience to have mineflails or minesweepers not being used because people dont like the idea of another player using a lot of mines.

From my mentor perspective, this is fail logic at its worst and I'm tempted to draw the L2P card from the bunk. You have counters, use them.

Also - One player doing something retardedly easy to counter and it being unexpected the first time hardly is a argument.

[BeRzErKeR]

Lol, my American company is both mine and sticky spam...

[Baine]

Wind has already shown how powerful mine spam can be. And from personal experience it completely ruined my gaming experience. Its in no way as bad as riflemen sticky spam...

PQ

I really don't want to start another T17 thread here and I don't want anyone to make it a T17 thread after this comment, but all the threads made about it show that T17 spam ruined a lot of peoples' gaming experience aswell, so that hardly is an argument against it.

Also, upping the number of mines to a reasonable amount(2) will just encourage the use of minesweepers even more, moving to another level of gameplay. Just because people can buy 2 mines doesn't mean that everyone and their mother will spam them. You will eventually find the usual spammers but it won't be any different than what you are used to from allied players...

[pqumsieh]

@Baine, Just as T17 spam ruined the gaming experience of many other players, so too will mine spam. This is a valid argument because devs should be considering game play as a major aspect of balance. I'm advocating to make all mine upgrades just one and allow maybe 1 or 2 doctrines purchase an extra mine as a T1 or something.

Its not a question of whether counters exist, its a question of whether we want gameplay to become more slow and tedious. This mod has always been relatively fast pace, mine spam turns that around and makes game play much slower due to the added caution.

@ Smokaz, its a matter of opinion. You think it should be an integral part, I do not. You have your reasons, I have mine. When you consider EIR's environment and game play mechanics, mine usage in vCoH is quite different and consequential than mine spam in EIR. If you hit a mine in vCoH the engineers following your tanks can quickly removing the damaged engine. In EIR, you have to use a repair kit. The cost effectiveness is quite different!

You started this topic arguing that it was not fair that engineers had 2 mines and pioneers only had one. I've suggested that we make it equal on both factions. I don't see the contention here? It seems like a logical compromise does it not?

PQ

[Smokaz]

Can you explain to me how reducing strategy/game options makes for a better game than increasing it? Because thats what your solution will do. It will downplay the possiblity of spending munitions on defensive weapons like mines, it will downplay the usage of mine flails and detectors. There's no opinion here your solution will funnel the game into being more bland and conservative while mine expands the use and possiblity of it while reaching towards the possiblity for all factions to be able to use these types of weapons equally. Thats the way we are going currently, just look at the Minesweeper squads we have implemented. You and unknown's take on it is against current discourse.

If tellers or other mines are too powerful in your eyes compared to direct or indirect fire or whatever else you can choose to spend muni/manpower on its a pricing issue. End of story.

[pqumsieh]

Ironically, when I brought up a similar argument with regard to officers sharing auras, you argued fiercely that my point (taking away option and thus reducing the dynamics of game play) was a "fail argument". Just something to consider

For someone who is supposedly going to law school, you really have an inability to appreciate all aspects of an argument. For example, if we reduced each faction to 1 mine each, that in no way removes a players option to field mines. It limits them yes, but you seem to think it will totally remove that aspect from game play.

My main point to consider was what mines do to game play. They slow it down. If that is the direction the devs want to go than so be it, I just wanted to point this fact out. Mines should still be part of game play, just in a more limited way. (again, look at my points regarding how mines operate differently in EIR vs. vCoh).

PQ